I have a question. Do you think that sexual violence is a bigger issue because the majority of victims are women? Wouldn't it be equally as bad if the split was 50 50? In other words, sexual violence against a man is no worse or better than sexual violence against a woman.
It's domestic violence awareness month. It would be disingenuous for those raising awareness to pretend that this issue impacts both sexes equally.
There's not a single study out there that supports the perspective that men are the victims of domestic violence in equal numbers. Does this mean it's not a problem? Of course not, but let's be real - according to the DOJ, about 99% of all rapists are male. 91% of the victims are female. It's estimated that 1 in 6 women in the US will experience an attempted or completed rape.
Our society has a huge problem addressing the fact that men perpetrate almost all sexual violence and a gross majority of domestic violence. It's a fact people generally try to ignore or muddy with comments like the first two.
The problem is we are unwilling to address the underlying causes of domestic violence. For instance, greek systems at colleges are basically the perfect storm of elements for creating domestic violence. I didn't join a frat because of these stories. Ironically, rather than seeing sororities advocate eradicating the greek system, they advocate dv awareness and then go get shitfaced in front of drunk male strangers alone in skimpy outfits.
Dv is a serious issue but we choose to have our cake and eat it too. if we seriously want to reduce domestic violence, we have to stop endorsing culture and environment that promotes it.
The number one problem with domestic violence is that people commit it, not people getting drunk in skimpy outfits. This is the same old blame the victim bs.
"I didn't join a frat because of these stories. Ironically, rather than seeing sororities advocate eradicating the greek system, they advocate dv awareness and then go get shitfaced in front of drunk male strangers alone in skimpy outfits."
I'm NOT taking a position on this, except to say that I think that (especially for law students/lawyers) we need to be able to take into account all the evidence available when dealing with big issues like this. So here's your lawyerly point-counterpoint:
James is incorrect when he says "not a single study out there that supports the perspective that men are the victims of domestic violence in equal numbers." There are in fact studies that show that, in relationships wherein violence is reciprocated, women and men commit violent acts towards their partners in roughly equal numbers, and, in relationships wherein violence is one-sided, women commit violent acts against their male partners more often than men do. See e.g., http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/5/941 . However, from what I've heard (and I haven't done an exhaustive read of the literature), I think these and/or other studies consistently find that women are more likely to be injured than men. Maybe that's what James meant by "victims," I don't know. Also, I believe that in these studies, violent acts include relatively minor attacks such as slapping and shoving.
Fine, just google "Differences in Frequency of Violence and Reported Injury Between Relationships With Reciprocal and Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence"
"The number one problem with domestic violence is that people commit it, not people getting drunk in skimpy outfits. This is the same old blame the victim bs."
Isn't avoiding a situation with heightened risk something about which the victim should be concerned? If I walked down the street in a crime-heavy area flaunting a giant Rolex, and I got robbed, people would, and should, say, "What a fucking idiot. He shouldn't have put himself in that situation."
Nobody said it is a woman's fault for getting punched by some douchebag frat guy. It is obviously the puncher's fault. But the punchee should also have the good sense not to put herself in a dangerous situation.
I can't think of a single crime that is not the criminal's fault. That doesn't mean I shouldn't lock the door to my house, be aware of where my wallet is when I'm on a train, or leave an abusive relationship.
I don't think getting punched (or worse) by a douchebag frat guy for wearing a skimp outfit qualifies as domestic violence.
My understanding is that domestic violence presupposes a pre-existing relationship, and that the concern is about patterns of abuse, not one-off drunken acts.
Not to say there's no link whatsoever, just that wearing a skimpy outfit to a frat party doesn't obviously invite domestic violence (although it may increase the risk of sexual harassment or worse).
Yes - 9:19 is talking about two different things. The "women-shouldn't-wear-short-skirts-lest-they-invite-assault" argument blames the sexual assault victim, not the DV victim. Usually that argument runs along the lines of "women shouldn't anger men lest they invite assault." Both equally fallacious, but different.
7:58, you *did* take a position, and that was that women should (and don't) have the "good sense" to avoid putting themselves in situations with "heightened risk" - But this is a shitty position to take, because it assumes that assault happens in disproportionate number to women wearing skimpy skirts around frat guys, and so those women should avoid this behavior. But it doesn't. Assault happens to women, period. Full stop. It happens to women wearing skirts, and pants, and dresses, and suits. The risk factor here isn't the clothes - it's being female.
Emily, you completely misunderstand what I was saying. I don't know where those quotes are coming from or what makes you think anything I wrote has to do with blaming DV victims. I would never blame a DV victim, ever.
Here's a condensed version of what I wrote: (1) James wrote "There's not a single study out there that supports the perspective that men are the victims of domestic violence in equal numbers." (2) However, James should watch out when he makes statements like that, because there are studies that show that women commit violent acts towards their male partners at least as often as men do towards women. (3) However, studies also show that women are injured much more often than men. (4) Also, remember that "commit violent acts" includes (at least in some studies) relatively minor stuff like shoving. Conclusion: James (and others sharing his view) can still make the point that he makes, since it appears DV hurts women much more than men, but let's acknowledge that the studies that are out there force him to just be a little more nuanced.
Emily, I think what you misread was "we need to be able to take into account all the evidence." That was a reference to the one sentence from James's post that I quoted, not to anything else that anyone else said. Did you read the rest of my post?
And by "I'm not taking a position," what I mean is that I'm not saying James's position is ultimately a good or bad one. I'm just trying to make sure this conversation is informed.
When did it become a bad thing to encourage awareness of one's situation? Sure, those examples were more sexual assault than DV, but shouldn't a person who lives with an abusive boyfriend leave?
Is it the abusee's fault they are being abused? Obviously not. But it is still incumbent upon them to do something.
In all the argument about whether women are disproportionately affected or not, the message seems to be getting somewhat lost -- 29% of all people, men or women, will be victims of intimate partner violence in their lifetime. That is what the display represents - the 29%. Not whether they are male or female. It is Domestic Violence Awareness Month, and in an effort to be more aware, perhaps we could spend less time debating whether men or women are more greatly affected, and more time addressing mistaken assumptions such as 2:17's that an abused individual can "just leave." It's not always that easy.
I think the argument was less "whether men or women are more greatly affected" and more whether men should be considered at all. James says no. Rational people say yes.
Yup, that's definitely what I said. Or, maybe you should work on those reading comprehension skills?
That study's pretty suspect given we don't know anything about what's considered violence form that abstract, nor who was surveyed. However, I will concede that there is a study that contradicts countless others.
Look all, this is ridiculous. I'm going to reinforce Katie's point here -- DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS REALLY COMMON, regardless of who the victims are.
Let's take this conversation somewhere more productive. Suppose a friend confides in me that he, she, or insert-pronoun-of-your-choice is being abused. What should I do?
It would have been nice if they had stated that it's 85% of REPORTED victims are women.
ReplyDeleteI have a question. Do you think that sexual violence is a bigger issue because the majority of victims are women? Wouldn't it be equally as bad if the split was 50 50? In other words, sexual violence against a man is no worse or better than sexual violence against a woman.
ReplyDeletethis is really cool.
ReplyDeleteA. Fong has quickly become the best N&B poster of all time. I move to rename the website to The A.Fong Post.
ReplyDeleteIt's domestic violence awareness month. It would be disingenuous for those raising awareness to pretend that this issue impacts both sexes equally.
ReplyDeleteThere's not a single study out there that supports the perspective that men are the victims of domestic violence in equal numbers. Does this mean it's not a problem? Of course not, but let's be real - according to the DOJ, about 99% of all rapists are male. 91% of the victims are female. It's estimated that 1 in 6 women in the US will experience an attempted or completed rape.
Our society has a huge problem addressing the fact that men perpetrate almost all sexual violence and a gross majority of domestic violence. It's a fact people generally try to ignore or muddy with comments like the first two.
@1:00 AM, you say that now ...
ReplyDeleteThe problem is we are unwilling to address the underlying causes of domestic violence. For instance, greek systems at colleges are basically the perfect storm of elements for creating domestic violence. I didn't join a frat because of these stories. Ironically, rather than seeing sororities advocate eradicating the greek system, they advocate dv awareness and then go get shitfaced in front of drunk male strangers alone in skimpy outfits.
ReplyDeleteDv is a serious issue but we choose to have our cake and eat it too. if we seriously want to reduce domestic violence, we have to stop endorsing culture and environment that promotes it.
The number one problem with domestic violence is that people commit it, not people getting drunk in skimpy outfits. This is the same old blame the victim bs.
ReplyDelete"I didn't join a frat because of these stories. Ironically, rather than seeing sororities advocate eradicating the greek system, they advocate dv awareness and then go get shitfaced in front of drunk male strangers alone in skimpy outfits."
ReplyDeleteWhat is this I don't even
I'm NOT taking a position on this, except to say that I think that (especially for law students/lawyers) we need to be able to take into account all the evidence available when dealing with big issues like this. So here's your lawyerly point-counterpoint:
ReplyDeleteJames is incorrect when he says "not a single study out there that supports the perspective that men are the victims of domestic violence in equal numbers." There are in fact studies that show that, in relationships wherein violence is reciprocated, women and men commit violent acts towards their partners in roughly equal numbers, and, in relationships wherein violence is one-sided, women commit violent acts against their male partners more often than men do. See e.g., http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/5/941 . However, from what I've heard (and I haven't done an exhaustive read of the literature), I think these and/or other studies consistently find that women are more likely to be injured than men. Maybe that's what James meant by "victims," I don't know. Also, I believe that in these studies, violent acts include relatively minor attacks such as slapping and shoving.
Here is the citation (didn't work the first time): http://ajph.aphapublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/97/5/941
ReplyDeleteNor did it work the second.
ReplyDeleteFine, just google "Differences in Frequency of Violence and Reported Injury Between Relationships With Reciprocal and Nonreciprocal Intimate Partner Violence"
"The number one problem with domestic violence is that people commit it, not people getting drunk in skimpy outfits. This is the same old blame the victim bs."
ReplyDeleteIsn't avoiding a situation with heightened risk something about which the victim should be concerned? If I walked down the street in a crime-heavy area flaunting a giant Rolex, and I got robbed, people would, and should, say, "What a fucking idiot. He shouldn't have put himself in that situation."
Nobody said it is a woman's fault for getting punched by some douchebag frat guy. It is obviously the puncher's fault. But the punchee should also have the good sense not to put herself in a dangerous situation.
I can't think of a single crime that is not the criminal's fault. That doesn't mean I shouldn't lock the door to my house, be aware of where my wallet is when I'm on a train, or leave an abusive relationship.
I don't think getting punched (or worse) by a douchebag frat guy for wearing a skimp outfit qualifies as domestic violence.
ReplyDeleteMy understanding is that domestic violence presupposes a pre-existing relationship, and that the concern is about patterns of abuse, not one-off drunken acts.
Not to say there's no link whatsoever, just that wearing a skimpy outfit to a frat party doesn't obviously invite domestic violence (although it may increase the risk of sexual harassment or worse).
Is 9:19 conflating domestic violence and sexual assault?
ReplyDeleteYes - 9:19 is talking about two different things. The "women-shouldn't-wear-short-skirts-lest-they-invite-assault" argument blames the sexual assault victim, not the DV victim. Usually that argument runs along the lines of "women shouldn't anger men lest they invite assault." Both equally fallacious, but different.
ReplyDelete7:58, you *did* take a position, and that was that women should (and don't) have the "good sense" to avoid putting themselves in situations with "heightened risk" - But this is a shitty position to take, because it assumes that assault happens in disproportionate number to women wearing skimpy skirts around frat guys, and so those women should avoid this behavior. But it doesn't. Assault happens to women, period. Full stop. It happens to women wearing skirts, and pants, and dresses, and suits. The risk factor here isn't the clothes - it's being female.
7:58 here,
ReplyDeleteEmily, you completely misunderstand what I was saying. I don't know where those quotes are coming from or what makes you think anything I wrote has to do with blaming DV victims. I would never blame a DV victim, ever.
Here's a condensed version of what I wrote: (1) James wrote "There's not a single study out there that supports the perspective that men are the victims of domestic violence in equal numbers." (2) However, James should watch out when he makes statements like that, because there are studies that show that women commit violent acts towards their male partners at least as often as men do towards women. (3) However, studies also show that women are injured much more often than men. (4) Also, remember that "commit violent acts" includes (at least in some studies) relatively minor stuff like shoving. Conclusion: James (and others sharing his view) can still make the point that he makes, since it appears DV hurts women much more than men, but let's acknowledge that the studies that are out there force him to just be a little more nuanced.
7:58, you're right - my bad. I meant to address my comment to 9:36, but got the timestamps mixed up as I was typing.
ReplyDelete7:58 again,
ReplyDeleteEmily, I think what you misread was "we need to be able to take into account all the evidence." That was a reference to the one sentence from James's post that I quoted, not to anything else that anyone else said. Did you read the rest of my post?
And by "I'm not taking a position," what I mean is that I'm not saying James's position is ultimately a good or bad one. I'm just trying to make sure this conversation is informed.
7:58, see my comment above - I was responding to 9:36 but confused his or her comment with yours. The substance of my post is directed to 9:36.
ReplyDeleteWhen did it become a bad thing to encourage awareness of one's situation? Sure, those examples were more sexual assault than DV, but shouldn't a person who lives with an abusive boyfriend leave?
ReplyDeleteIs it the abusee's fault they are being abused? Obviously not. But it is still incumbent upon them to do something.
I think that is the point 9:36 is making.
In all the argument about whether women are disproportionately affected or not, the message seems to be getting somewhat lost -- 29% of all people, men or women, will be victims of intimate partner violence in their lifetime. That is what the display represents - the 29%. Not whether they are male or female. It is Domestic Violence Awareness Month, and in an effort to be more aware, perhaps we could spend less time debating whether men or women are more greatly affected, and more time addressing mistaken assumptions such as 2:17's that an abused individual can "just leave." It's not always that easy.
ReplyDeleteI think the argument was less "whether men or women are more greatly affected" and more whether men should be considered at all. James says no. Rational people say yes.
ReplyDeleteYup, that's definitely what I said. Or, maybe you should work on those reading comprehension skills?
ReplyDeleteThat study's pretty suspect given we don't know anything about what's considered violence form that abstract, nor who was surveyed. However, I will concede that there is a study that contradicts countless others.
James, you might want to think about making a couple more concessions:
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_domestic_violence
Thanks for linking to a wikipedia article that, overall, supports my position. I expect a nit-picky response to this. :)
ReplyDeleteLook all, this is ridiculous. I'm going to reinforce Katie's point here -- DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS REALLY COMMON, regardless of who the victims are.
ReplyDeleteLet's take this conversation somewhere more productive. Suppose a friend confides in me that he, she, or insert-pronoun-of-your-choice is being abused. What should I do?