We Believe in Yoo
I'll definitely have more to say about this later, but this morning's disruption of Con Law by those who can't live without a cause to fight for really pissed me off (as many noticed). If you weren't around this morning, about half a dozen protesters stormed into Booth where Prof. Yoo was in the middle of asking me a question to protest his torture memos (yeah I know, some people still live in the past). I'm glad my classmates were for the most part in agreement that the means was not appropriate. I'm also glad that others have contacted Prof. Yoo to offer to come early tomorrow to make up for the lost time.
And that is what really irked me. Disrupting a class is disrupting a class is disrupting a class. I can agree with their message ad infinitum, but you are in the wrong for disrupting a class. This was something the protestors could not fathom. Neither could some of my classmates, with one saying "well it's civil disobedience." The premise of civil disobedience is breaking a law or rule you disagree with. If they disagree with the university regulations and state laws prohibiting disruption of class, then they're welcome to break them and face the consequences. But they broke those rules and laws for other reasons that have nothing to do with disrupting class. They acted selfishly to promote their own cause. As important as they perceive their cause to be, they cannot steal our time from us...without that is...paying for it. I'd really like to know where they live. Let's just say the strobe lights and bull horms will be out in force. I am a champion of classroom time and feel that no hour of the night is too sacred to get my message across.
More seriously, the crux of the protesters' argument was that John Yoo should not be teaching here. I couldn't disagree more. He WAS a tenured professor here when he took leave to work at the DOJ and returned to that position. Tenure is such a sacred position for a reason. But of course those whose knee-jerk reaction is to disagree with a person without much thought tend not to respect such concepts as tenure or academic freedom. Frankly, these people are worse than the Bill O'Reillys of the world who went after Ward Churchill. At least Bill O used his bully pulpit and didn't disrupt Churchill's classes.
Update: Patrick Rodriguez of CalPatriot actually points out that these people are from World Can't Wait. Interesting. So I was right that they're people who can't live without having a cause to fight for.
And that is what really irked me. Disrupting a class is disrupting a class is disrupting a class. I can agree with their message ad infinitum, but you are in the wrong for disrupting a class. This was something the protestors could not fathom. Neither could some of my classmates, with one saying "well it's civil disobedience." The premise of civil disobedience is breaking a law or rule you disagree with. If they disagree with the university regulations and state laws prohibiting disruption of class, then they're welcome to break them and face the consequences. But they broke those rules and laws for other reasons that have nothing to do with disrupting class. They acted selfishly to promote their own cause. As important as they perceive their cause to be, they cannot steal our time from us...without that is...paying for it. I'd really like to know where they live. Let's just say the strobe lights and bull horms will be out in force. I am a champion of classroom time and feel that no hour of the night is too sacred to get my message across.
More seriously, the crux of the protesters' argument was that John Yoo should not be teaching here. I couldn't disagree more. He WAS a tenured professor here when he took leave to work at the DOJ and returned to that position. Tenure is such a sacred position for a reason. But of course those whose knee-jerk reaction is to disagree with a person without much thought tend not to respect such concepts as tenure or academic freedom. Frankly, these people are worse than the Bill O'Reillys of the world who went after Ward Churchill. At least Bill O used his bully pulpit and didn't disrupt Churchill's classes.
Update: Patrick Rodriguez of CalPatriot actually points out that these people are from World Can't Wait. Interesting. So I was right that they're people who can't live without having a cause to fight for.
Labels: Only In Berkeley, Rabid Conservatives, Rabid Liberals, Yoo-Hoo
posted by Armen Adzhemyan at 11:50 AM
76 Comments:
Amen brother.
I am not even in the Con law class and felt tortured by the incivility of those sanctimonious assholes. Civil disobedience phaw!!! UNJUSTIFIED IDIOCY
"Let's just say the strobe lights and bull horms will be out in force. I am a champion of classroom time and feel that no hour of the night is too sacred to get my message across."
I'm just going to presume it's Armen's acute sense of irony that impels him to write this sentence.
It was, after all, his own advocacy for the legality of the bullhorn and strobe lights (and similar but more extreme tactics) that won Yoo such zealous opponents.
I couldn't find a smooth way of integrating desecration of religious texts, so I went with option number 2. Glad it was noticed.
Boalt was finally shook up a bit today. About time. It was interesting though, to see raw idealist (perhaps misdirected and not too well planned out) action come face to face with law student apathy.
Maybe they don’t get the finer points of our perspective; that we’re taking this class to the learn the ways of the enemy. But maybe they expose our duplicity. I’m against the war. I’m pro-choice and pro-environment. Next year I’ll work for a law firm that defends Monsanto and Halliburton so that I can pay off my horrible debt. Pity me. Does my debt justify serving all of these purposes that I proclaim to be against? Others probably make tougher choices with a stronger moral backbone. Probably a pretty subjective topic--- but please, let’s not claim the high ground.
A little screaming and yelling is a good thing. When 2,000 US soldiers and countless hundreds of thousands of brown people are dying in a world not too far away so that we can maintain our “standard of living”…Yoo has it coming to him and so do we. Maybe the link is not direct, maybe we lost 10 minutes of class time. The law is a stilted, foolish invention based on precedent handed down from lots of old white man logic. It doesn’t take much to understand the law—it ain’t magical and we don’t have the keys to the kingdom. And we’re here worshipping John Yoo because he’s been on the cover of the Wall Street Journal? Let’s admit it and get off our high horse.
Hasn’t anyone ever felt like screaming in the last 5 years? Some serious shit has gone down. I am so tired of listening to class mates and their mental masturbation. So out of touch with reality. So high on their own intellectual capabilities. A bunch of students were asking shortly after the protest “where these law students?” – as if it matters as to who has the right to speak out against injustice. Or we somehow have more authority because we took a couple of courses. I hope we all enjoy your hot air balloon rides next summer with cheese-dick lawyers. No one will remember us though when we die with all our money and our big brains rotting in our heads. In contrast, Rosa Parks is remembered today for stirring up some trouble on a bus. I wonder if anyone got to work late that day because of little Rosa?
Call me a naïve, ignorant wide-eyed leftist fool who’s selling out anyway, but I’d rather be that than a hypocritical tool without the balls to admit it.
You hit the nail right on the head. The yelling and screaming is an excellent way to make you feel good about yourself and your cause while actually accomplishing nothing. In fact, I want to congratulate the protesters and those who agree with them in alienating those who are likely to get the education to defend the rights that they are so preciously protesting about.
You can trivialize what you do here as much as you want, but I don't see the difficulty in admitting that there are more effective ways.
By the way, where do YOU live?
"The law is a stilted, foolish invention based on precedent handed down from lots of old white man logic. It doesn’t take much to understand the law—it ain’t magical and we don’t have the keys to the kingdom."
Foolish....that's rich....In the past I would have had slaves and steel armored henchmen to carry out my will. The Foolish white mans laws took that away. Go ahead though. Hide in the closet while the house is on fire. That should sovle all ills. better yet sing kumbyah in the closet while the house is on fire.
You should thank your retardo liberal stars that you don't have to kneel before me every day and pray that I don't kill you for my pleasure.
How do you like that reality nancy-boy.
Couldn't wait to get home today to see what Armen had to say after that circus this morning. By the way, I was impressed with how long you sustained your indignation as you screamed at the "torture victim." Quite a sight, really. This guy was on a leash with a hood over his face, and you cut him no slack whatsoever.
When I first got to the lobby, I had no idea what was happening. The cops were real. Were the prisoners? Then Torture Victim's expensive sneakers tipped me off. Something about the moral outrage of a guy wearing shoes stitched together by Indonesian 7-year-olds in a dank sweatshop fails to inspire me. From that point on, I couldn't take those people seriously. When I got the story as to what happened, I was even less impressed.
I am no fan of Yoo's politics, and I shouldn't even have to say that to qualify my statements, but such is the climate. I've actually read his memos and correspondence with Alberto Gonzales, which is more than I suspect most people have done. It can be creepy stuff, but he was a lawyer called upon to do a lawyer's job. It's pretty standard memoranda. Just like Anonymous is going to write for Halliburton someday.
The whole thing just fails to provoke me. Yes, the world is in serious trouble. No, memos condoning torture are not helping. But is this the kind of change we need? Harrassing some teacher (and his students) and trying to get him fired because he worked for an administration we don't like? Just seems like there are problems that deserve more attention. But maybe I'm just being an apathetic law student.
I don't necessarily agree with the students' actions, but I do disagree with this statement that was posted:
"It can be creepy stuff, but he was a lawyer called upon to do a lawyer's job. It's pretty standard memoranda."
Not quite. The memo is extraordinary in how it goes to such lengths to come to a conclusion authorizing the President to torture. It's not a sound, objective legal memo as Yoo was ethically obligated to write. Yoo wrote it with the conclusion known all along and the legal arguments stretched to justify the result mandated by the fascists in the VP's office. The memo was written because the CIA was getting nervous about the its potential liability, and Yoo's job was just to manufacture a legal justification.
Talk to people who know (e.g., Marty Lederman who worked at the OLC when the memo was written), and they'll tell you that it is one of the most intellectually dishonest pieces of garbage to ever come out of the DOJ.
And, yes, I've read the memos, at a seminar at CLS that was all about this topic.
Wow, I can't believe I'm engaging in this debate, but...
Okay, Anonymous, you seem to know more about the political climate of the OLC than I do. Fine, I accept that. I read the memos without any context. Yes, "creepy" is an understatement. Okay, to be honest, I felt sick when I read this stuff. And I'm not here trying to take a stand that the memos were great or even properly done. For Christ's sake, I can't even look at the guy in the hallway, let alone take one of his classes (though I hear he is an effective lecturer).
What I do know is that Yoo was called upon to fill a certain role. How much political pressure that role involved, I don't know, but I suspect it was just slightly more than in your typical legal job. No, I have never talked to an OLC lawyer to get the details. It's very easy for us to say now that his actions were clearly wrong and he went too far. A lot of people have done questionable things under pressure. But again, I don't know that much about the role and I don't purport to. I've always been unsettled by the way Yoo gleefully seems to embrace the role of the bad guy. Maybe he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt here. In any event, the administration was facing some heat and someone leaked some things. When it became clear that the public was not receiving these things well, the administration scapegoated Yoo, distanced itself from him, and tried to say they never went in for his kind of extremism. What I'm saying is I don't believe that. If there are bad guys out there who are dangerous because they're trying to get away with torture, they're the guys still in power, not some teacher they cut loose a long time ago. The memos are bad, disgusting...sorry I referred to them so lightly...but ask the people who wanted those memos and even they will tell you that John Yoo is no longer relevant. I stand by what I said before. A guy teaching a Con Law class is not the appropriate object for theatrical protest, at least not DURING CLASS.
One other thing someone pointed out to me: while it seems wrong to interrupt class, if Yoo is going to bail out of public speaking engagements, how else are people supposed to protest him? Sorry, I just had to throw that in. If you're in the class, save your backlash; I'm still opposed to this kind of disruption.
Unless there's jello shots.
I strongly disagree with some of Yoo's statements, but the OP is entirely correct. The classroom is not the place. Last year, I sat in Hill Auditorium at Michigan when protestors interrupted a very interesting speech by Justice Scalia. It is difficult to say what they hoped to gain, but I suspect that they were quite pleased with themselves for ruining that experience.
Joe, I appreciate what you're saying here, really. To answer your brain surgery question, if I were a med student and I had any choice, I would not take a class from a surgeon widely suspected of incompetence. Accordingly, I presently do not take classes from teachers I don't want to hear from. We are all free to make that choice. John Yoo's students are just as smart as everyone else at Boalt (even if some of us Boalties deflate your hopes for the world). They don't need people dressed like prison camp inmates to storm the classroom and serve as their moral compass. I have my doubts about whether Yoo is damaging anyone's ability to function as an ethical lawyer, but I do not discount the possibility that you are right about this. I'm done posting on this, as my original concern was the form of protest, not its subject matter. Truce.
Hey, Anonymous 2:20pm:
You’re no Yoo.
You are a “naïve, ignorant wide-eyed leftist fool who’s selling out anyway.” Maybe when you accrue half of John Yoo’s credentials, accomplishments and abilities, you can have an opinion on his professional conduct. At least Yoo is man enough to stand by his opinion in this commie hell-hole. Perhaps if YOU were not a “hypocritical tool without the balls to admit it,” you’d follow your convictions and go work in some public interest dump.
As to disruption of class, my “old white man logic” tells me that it’s completely counterproductive. Maybe if the “raw idealists” smoked as little less weed, they’d realize that.
Joe, you're using an example of you dropping Yoo's class to support the argument that you didn't have a choice in taking him? And I think I've been very good about not nitpicking like this, but I think you just gave a grand illustration of mad's point that you and everyone else is free to take or not take him as they please. Whether he, Guzman, Buxie, or Caron should teach IL is another issue.
I suppose with Edley's grandiose plans for the school we could hire Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde to teach every class.
7:33, your comments are about as useful as a moron dressing up in prison garb and yelling at me about torture. When those protesting are from schools like UMass and when those standing up for Yoo are the students here at Boalt, I'm a tad unnerved, to say the least, that you'd call Boalt a communist hell hole. Naturally, such phrases often emanate from those who really don't know what a communist hell hole is.
Hey Anonymous 2:20:
Rosa Parks protested segregated public buses by protesting on a bus. How is disrupting Yoo's class effective then?
I post on a Boalt blog which may be of interest to the people here. Check out boalt.blogspot.com. The pillory article is particularly apt to the protestors today
I will be the first to admit that I am probably not intellectually on par with some of the parties to this discussion, and certainly John Yoo, however, I do not think it takes the proverbial rocket scientist to realize that no time or forum is perfectly appropriate or convenient...but isn't that the point? How effective would civil disobedience be if the potential protestors took into account all those that they would disrupt, inconvenience or annoy by making their statement? I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly know that I would not be enjoying the privileges of Boalt's classrooms today had it not been for some folks throughout history who decided to get some balls and be inappropriate and inconsiderate.
Most of you make me sick. Bitching about a 5 minute interruption of class as if it's going to prevent you from doing what you will inevitably do - lead the rest of your life in blissful ignorance as you wipe your ass with with blood money. The five minutes you lost will not prevent you from getting your 8-12 at Cravath, nor will it prevent you from being the holier-than-thou, ignorant fuck you are today. God forbid you actually learn something that isn't stuffed down your throat by an equally ignorant academic who known nothing of the world outside his six figure salary and pet law review article!
With all due respect, actually, no, without any respect, the only people stuffing anything down anyone's throats were those waltzing into my class as part of an organization devoted to disturbing learning across campuses in the U.S. I say this knowing full well you may well be the person sitting behind me, next to me, in front of me, etc., but I can't respect any Boaltie condoning this behavior. Grow the fuck up. If you want to do something against torture then do it, you now have the skills to make a difference (see Boalt alumns at DoS writing memos advocating POW status), but don't shout around and play dress up in anticipation of halloween parties.
But if you're interested in alternative learning, my original offer still stands. 4 A.M.? Your place? Finals week?
I'm a liberal and am opposed to torture. Yet, I condemn the ridiculous behavior of these protestors. Yoo should be able to teach without disturbance. His students should be able to learn and receive the educational service they are dearly paying for.
There are two things that came to my mind when i heard of this incident:
1)"Berkeley is supposed to be the most 'liberal' institution in the US". MYTH. It think Berkeley is quite laid back, especially Boalt. It has nothing to do with Berkeley in the 70s. Most of the people seem to me to be politically indifferent and worrying all of their time about their readings, OCIP, finals.
Hmmm, I also had this interesting experience of being videotaped(!) while talking outside of Boalt with one of the protesters on Constitutional Day. Therefore, the next time you join a protest or just ask a protester a question like I did, beware, guys. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU.
2)Interrupting a class and 'protesting in class' is not at all weird in Greece. I remember not a single day would pass in Law School without having at least one intermezzo of our anarchist/leftist guys. You would also see whatever political posters all over the walls, in and out of classrooms. In general, Greeks are really crazy about their rights and especially right of speech. The professor could not easily throw such guys (wanting to exercize their precious right of speech) out of classroom.
That is why I didnt seem odd to me when i heard of the Con Law intruders yesterday.
Well, it's nice to have such a "shake" every once in while, just to remind you that, after all, we're not just students. We're sceptical citizens with political views and thoughts. Though I wouldnt hand out leaflets for Yoo in his own class even if I were ever his worst opponent.
1. I think John Yoo has the wrong position on a lot of Constitutional law, including much of what he is teaching in the Structural Issues class.
2. I think it is right to hold him responsible for what I think are ethical lapses during his time serving in the Bush administration, but this should be distinguished from his teaching.
3. He is also one of the best teachers I have had at Boalt. He is very balanced, and he is one of the very few who actually focus on the controversy surrounding the cases he discusses, and tries to convince rather than convert students to his own opinion. I am not convinced, but I learned a lot from him.
4. Why can't activist groups send half way intellegent, or at least minimally articulate people to their protests? The idiot in the hood screaming for people please beat him or to hold his leash not only was not engaging in debate, he sounded like he was more worked up about S&M than torture.
5. When I was a boy, people said S&M. Now it seems to be BDSM. I'm not in the community, here, and I think I missed something. What gives? Is it like the gay and lesbian groups adding letters to their acronyms for bisexual & transgender members? Who are the S&M people adding in?
Oh, and I also think it was off-base to interrupt class. It may be common in Greece, and I've seen it plenty of times in this country, but it's a bad plan. If your movement deserves any respect, it is because you have the truth on your side, and you ought to be encouraging debate and discussion because you think you will win that debate and convince people. Drawing attention to the cause is great, but doing it by interrupting a constitutional law class in which real discussion is going on is just dumb. There are many other places an interruption will cause a stir without stopping useful discussion. And for the record, liberal voices get lots of air time in that class (most of the class until the interruption was a back and forth in which most of the time the floor was held by the liberal wing of the class, and maybe it's who I spend time talking to, but the liberal wing is most of us).
We love to hear Armen rant and rave, so don't take this the wrong way. What's with the yelling? You really were in those dudes faces yelling back at them for a long time. And your main point from what little I heard seemed to be that they shouldn't have interfered with your right to go to class. Don't mess with my stuff. I own this time. The post isn't so much of that, so maybe I misunderstood. But still, why all the yelling?
Meek, they interrupted ME while I was in the middle of answering a question. I took that personally. Second, they interrupted MY class and MY professor. I was extremely possessive about both because I pay for it, they don't. They were dismissive about the theft by claiming, "it was just the last ten minutes." That was the last straw.
I'm still at a loss as to a few things.
1) How the hell did this brain fart on their part accomplish anything for their side? I'd love to know of at least one person who was not already completely with them who after this wants to sign up to rid torture in our lifetime.
2) Those of you who roll your eyes [<-- inlcudes me], or laugh [<-- also me], or make snide remarks to your neighbors [<-- ok yeah this too], when your classmates ask questions you don't approve of...I'm curious how many of you are now lockstep with these professional protesters? Right on brother...disrupt Yoo's class...no big deal...Boalt's too complacent anyway. Basically I'm wondering if people are consistently dismissive of class time or when the cause is one they agree with.
3) Yoo was fired from his position. Those of you still interested in lynching, or perhaps trying him at the Hague if you believe the pamphlets really need to have your heads examined.
And I'm still taking it personally whenever someone dismisses the interruption of MY class time in the name anything short of a fire breaking out courtesy of the construction in the library.
Several comments.
1. Anonymous 11:40 p.m. & others with similar opinions: It isn't just the message of the protestors, or their methods, ie. class disruption that really bother me, it is the theatrics. Why have conservatives won most debates (with voters) in this country for the last decade. I'll tell you why, its because they never stoop to the ridiculous. The liberal wing needs to put a tighter leash on its crazies because all that they do is make their cause look ridiculous. The right wing doesn't need to set up any straw men because liberals are more than happy to make specious arguments in clown suits without any coaxing from the right. Reasoned debate, not theatre in the round, is the way to bring about political change.
2. Anonymous 11:53: I don't know anything about Yoo, but I seriously doubt that he is an ignorant person who knows nothing about the outside world. I would like to see you debate him on 4 or 5 world issues and see how well you do.
3. At the risk of undermining my credibility I think that part of the torture debate should really be about whether or not torture should be permissible in certain very narrowly defined instances. Obviously not in the pursuit of confessions, but perhaps in pursuit of very valuable information. It could be conducted only through court order, and all information could be excluded from trial later on. I don't know if I actually would advocate for that position, but I think that it should be debated at least.
Armen, I wasn't there, so I certainly can't speak to the specifics of the protest or whether or not the protests were effective (and it seems they were not). Nonetheless, I don't think your criticism that "The premise of civil disobedience is breaking a law or rule you disagree with" really applies here. When exactly would that be for those who want to protest Yoo's memo? While I think it is fair to criticize the form and content of the protest, given that Yoo refuses to speak in public, how can protesters make their voices heard? The cordoning off of areas seen as too precious for interruption inevitably leads to situations like those at the RNC in 2004 with "free speech zones". I would rather suffer the consequences of the excesses of free speech than to not have it at all.
"I can agree with their message ad infinitum, but you are in the wrong for disrupting a class."
translation: nothing is more important to you than your class. funny, if it the professor was writing legal justifications so that your relatives could be tortured, you might disagree that your "class" is more important than the "message". if you thought the professor was largely responsible for having your 15 year old brother
raped in prison, you might disagree that "class" is more important.
anyway, just listen to yourself! you can argue whether the tactic was effective or not, fine, or whether you agree with their politics, fine, but when you get all totalitarian and self-righteous about having your class interrupted (ie. any interrupt ion whatsoever is automatically wrong) then you really start to sound like a prick. is that all lawyers care about? ugh!
Armen, I noticed you berating one of the protestors by saying that what you were doing to help the situation was infinitely better than what they were doing about the situation.
So what, exactly, is it that you are doing to stop torture?
Joe, the vast number of people who are opposed to the administraiton's policies who don't dress up in clown costumes or disrupt classes counsels against any conclusion that the conduct of these idiots is actually the right one for anyone who wants to oppose torture. Here's a challenge for you: You want to raise awareness of Yoo's politics? Get an intelligent discussion of it going. I think I've managed to do that here and I did it in the LA Times before coming to law school. Until you do, you have no credibility blah blah blah.
I can't even say that these people cared about what they were protesting since it was probably the most ineffective thing they could do. It's a great day for a cause when people are driven from sympathy/apathy to outride derision and hatred.
Anyway, it's really easy to set up farse categories of what really constitutes GENUINE belief in a cause and then dismiss those who don't meet your criteria. I don't care if they had to sell their soul to the devil to organize this protest, they get no sympathies from me. [Stones reference intentional].
10:56, fair comments. I urge you to practice the excesses of free speech in your daily life. If you go to school, I urge you to shout randomly during your classes. If you work, I urge you to do the same during business hours. I highly recommend attending open court and doing the same.
I'm about as absolute free-speech as they come, and the slight inconvenience of a few is not a reason to impede it. We allow the public onto our campus without asking any questions. But the learning is the primary mission of this institution and its disruption should have consequences, even if it's just me yelling at them in the Lobby...or keeping them awake at night.
11:06 -- YOU took my time for something YOU think is important. YOU are a thief. That's how you should read my statements. But of course, the amusing part is that you can't really fathom this possibility. Could it be that what you're so passionate about is really not that important in the grand scheme of things? Hmmmmmmmmm. Fight on brother.
11:09 -- you have the privilege of anonymity, I don't. Feel free to approach me when you see me and I'll be more than happy to indulge. I yelled this out in class if you were there.
Sorry, no. I don't need standing to criticize the way someone protests. I would be the first one to admit that organizing an effective protest is hard. I also would be happy to admit that I might not have what it takes to be an effective activist. Let me make what I wish were an obvious point. It's absurd to think that you need to be an activist to be a postive force in the world, and it's almost as absurd to accuse people of being oblivious or apathetic because they choose not to be activists. Finally, the ability to tell whether a protest is effective is not the same as the ability to organize a protest. There is no need to insult people because they have one skill without the other.
One more thing. It seemed clear to me that part of the strategy of the protesters in bursting into the room yelling and chanting and the immediately surrounding Professor Yoo was to make him feel intimidated. I don't know if it worked, but if a gang of people wearing masks came at you yelling angrily, I'm guessing most of you would be at least a little bit intimidated. I think this is part of why so many people felt such strong negative feelings about the protesters. That is not an acceptable means to make a point.
Also, the nonsense about whether the torture issue or class time is more important should be put to bed. The point is that there was no reason to choose between them. There are many other ways to create a noticeable disruption that don't compromise the most valuable activity going on on a university campus - learning, discussion, and debate. Occupying administrative offices, for example, is a time tested choice that can't help but create serious disruption within the university while adding to the climate of debate rather than detracting from it.
Wow. How many law students does it take to see the real issue?
First and foremost, Armen’s post does not address the legitimacy of “torture.” It is about people stealing something Armen and his fellow classmates paid for – class time. That’s it. Sadly, some people can’t help but conflate class time with radical political activism. Perhaps it is because any idiot can wear an orange jumpsuit and storm into Booth, whereas actually addressing the issue in an appropriate forum requires skills largely learned during class time. The catch-22 is that idiots wearing orange jumpsuits too often interrupt that class time…
As to the issue of torture, I wish everyone would take the time and read the memos. The question is not about “torturing” detainees. What is at issue is whether or not the Geneva Convention applies to Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. Don’t agree with Yoo’s analysis? Great! Go work for the DOJ and find the loophole in the Convention that will give brigands protection. But don’t harm your fellow students.
Lastly, I think the idiots who interrupted Yoo’s class don’t deserve protection under the Geneva Convention either.
"Lastly, I think the idiots who interrupted Yoo’s class don’t deserve protection under the Geneva Convention either."
Not to outsnark your snark, but assuming that the protesters were all U.S. citizens (a safe assumption, I think), they don't need Geneva Convention protections. They are, as any student in Con Law should no, protected by the 8th Amendment prohibition on cruel and unusual treatment. But thanks for playing.
Setting aside the effects on the students of having the class interrupted, can someone please tell me how this protest was effective for the folks organizing it?
Is anybody actually changing their minds because of it? Or are sexy protest actions like this just a means for the organization to recruit hotheads to staff theatrical stunts?
And I'm definitely not a person who is against all protests. I've been involved in picket lines and protests in the past (though I don't believe that should be a prerequisite for my comment). I'm also square against this administration's policies on torture and the application of the Geneva Convention. But I don't see how yesterday's stunt helped advance repudiation of Bush policy.
i wasn't in the class, but i do think think the protest would have gone over much more smoothly with jello shots, whomever suggested that is a musical genius, like stevie wonder but not so much. i totally feel armen's anger, though i can't say i feel the same way- either way it must have been quite a scene. angry right wingers spreading hate, dude man up and quit posting anonymously. others, chill out, hey now you have one of those weird berkeley stories you can tell your spoiled grandkids- yone step closer to being berring.
schwing
the last poster is prolly right... the protesters didnt help their case (turning out people for the WCW shit on nov 2). and they didnt change any of your minds.
but fundamentally, who gives a shit about you? and your class? [and even the nov 2 protest] you're 50 some odd lame-ass law students at Cal. wah wah wah!
this Yoo character got chased out of his class, and who cares about the rest. that alone is a positive. he has taken actions that make him a war criminal in my eyes and in the eyes of most of the world. thats all I need to know. if the lot of you were respectable and moral you would have chased him out of your class a long time ago.
either way, a decade or two from now, Yoo will be standing trial for war crimes and two over-zealous lawyer types of your generation will be making their names debating whether he deserves to live or die. the lot of you will be rich, and none of you will remember or care about this little stunt, nor will you feel sorry for Yoo in the least.
Anonymous 1:44
So I tried to make a joke and it wasn’t funny. Wouldn’t be the first time.
That said, you didn’t outsnark my snark. In fact, most of what you said is wrong. Protection under the Geneva Convention is not given to combatants on the basis of citizenship, but rather on membership in an armed force with at least some semblance of hierarchy. Civilians receive protection under the convention regardless of their citizenship. Hypothetically speaking, the Geneva Convention would protect a U.S. citizen who joined a foreign army and was subsequently captured during a time of armed conflict with that country. That individual would likely lose his U.S. citizenship, but, provided he committed no war crimes, would not lose protection under the Convention.
Also, the 8th amendment protects ALL people living in the U.S. against cruel and unusual punishment (not treatment, as you stated). Whether or not those who entered the class were U.S. citizens is irrelevant. Apparently, you’re not a very good con law student.
Hey 3:38 is November whatever it is that you've set as the date of the Revolution the day when the purges begin? I'm curious how you're going to spin the precarious position you're taking where the shouting down of someone you disagree with is lauditory, but not when you yourself are the one told to shut the fuck up. And don't go hiding behind the civil disobedience blanket.
boaltaction,
thank you for missing the point of the 1:42 comment entirely, and in the process revealing yourself as a humorless hack. (it's an online discussion, i gotta throw in an ad hominem attack or two!)
the point was, the protesters don't need to rely on the flimsy protections of the geneva conventions, post bush administration/john yoo's evisceration of said conventions. they are protected by the much more robust us constitution, which as far as i know the bush administration hasn't repudiated quite yet (though elements of the patriot act come rather too close for libertarian comfort).
as to my being wrong, i never said anything about the protesters eligibility for geneva conventions protection. you did. so your lengthy explanation of who might be protected, while interesting, was irrelevant.
your technical quibble w/ treatment vs. punishment, i never said i was quoting the 8th Amend, i merely referred to it. your point on citizenship v. residence is well-taken however. i miswrote. my bad.
but you, boaltaction, stop hiding your embarrassment behind a smokescreen of unnecessary legal "argument". i really was just joking, which is why i prefaced the whole (admittedly) lame follow-up attempt at humor with the "outsnark your snark" comment. you gotta relax, my man.
In Greek there is a saying, stating that you can't make omelet without breaking eggs. In the context of a protest, if the eggs you're breaking are mostly yours, this might make you a hero. On the other hand, it's usually when you break others' eggs that they care most and react making your protest more effective. Compromise...
Another question is whether you like omelet.
Can someone explain why a Constitutional Law class isn't exactly the appropriate forum for a protest? I mean: first amendment, anyone?
I understand the politics of cool make it such that watching what may seem an immature-ish, self-righteous vocalization of political frustration can be, well, annoying. That's one of the reasons I want to become a lawyer rather then spend my time with the black brigade anarchist youth. That said, you sit here and criticize a protester for their sneaker choice without reflecting on the irony of your own petty whining about having a precious con law class "interrupted" by live protest.
I doubt Yoo's skin is so thin that he can't intellectually protect himself. And no one is going to fire him. And his scholarship and yours continue. So why is everyone so eager to dismiss the protesters for their tactics? Did you loose a limb? Get bruised? No. Did the protesters cut into the time you "own" because you pay tuition? Deal. You are paying for a constitutional law class and have the opportunity to engage in lively debate about freedom of speech, professional ethics, and the constitutional arguments presented by the memo. Yet you appear pissed off because something out of your control dragged you into a non-harmful circumstance that makes you uncomfortable. I submit that true learning embraces circumstance.
As your own self-righteousness appears no purer then that of the protesters, I suggest the critique of the flaws of your shared humanity be set aside, along with pride, so that everyone may take a minute to use the experience as a real learning opportunity by talking about the scope of the memo, and why it was or wasn't acceptable. I, for one, don’t know the answer to that and would love to hear your informed opinion.
Can someone explain why a Constitutional Law class isn't exactly the appropriate forum for a protest? I mean: first amendment, anyone?
I stopped reading after this. If the lunacy of your statement is not self-evident, please let me know.
I'm letting you know. Your lazy dismissal isn't enough. Please explain.
speaking of censorship, way to censor my last post!
9:23, I haven't intentionally deleted any comments here, though I am tempted to do so with those that contain the words "self-righteous." If anything was deleted it was because I thought it was spam.
Rainbow, taking the EXCESS of something is not a proper example of its legitimate exercise, hence why they (you?) were kicked out. Still unclear? I can illucidate at 4 AM as per the terms of the original post.
not me, baby. I'm not really into the display thing. I'm just saying that no real harm was done, so quit yer bitchin'.
They got kicked out because there are people called school administrators out there that have such a function in life. So everyone has a pretty little role in the thing and now it's over and if you want to talk about it, say something useful or shut up.
Indignant students just aren't an attractive bunch, from either side of the tug-o-war.
gotta run. best to ya.
Hmmm something useful vs. shutting up...I can think of who this is more approriate for.
I think that if the protesters really want to make a strong visceral impact on we, the self-delusional and unenlightend students, one of them should volunteer to be tortured in front of us. If theatre is what they want to give us, at least make it good theatre. Nothing shakes one's convictions like heart felt blood curdling screams.
Armen, your argument is with a strawman. You are missing the point by steering this toward a question of free speech or debate.
Yoo is a war criminal. Plain and simple. If he raped a little kid and someone came into your class hassling him about it, would you whine about first amendment rights and protester tactics? Well, hes done a lot worse, and a lot of kids have been raped as a result. Go see Sy Hersh talk at MLK tomorrow if you dont believe me.
Even the ACLU recognizes this, as do many of your colleagues. This IS NOT a matter of opinion, of hassling someone for what they believe. This IS a matter of holding a war criminal accountable for his crimes.
From: "US detainees 'murdered' during interrogations"
"There is no question that US interrogations have resulted in deaths," ACLU executive director Anthony Romero said. "High-ranking officials who knew about the torture and sat on their hands and those who created and endorsed these policies must be held accountable."
This is what Yoo is responsible for, this is what he has to be held accountable for, and unfortunately right now, the only people doing it are these communists, and not people like you. When are you [future] lawyers going to step up to the plate and take some kind of action against torture (and in defense of your profession)?
I prefer cat treats, dog treats tend to be so hard and bland.
Oh no, please don't interrupt my studies...
I know my professor is a war criminal, but he's so smart, and good looking too...
And he's my advisor, and I am trying to get a degree here, and it's costing me a pretty penny...
You know, you are so insensitive for disrupting my studies and all...
Leave Dr. Mengele alone!
Yoo is a war criminal. Plain and simple. If he raped a little kid and someone came into your class hassling him about it, would you whine about first amendment rights and protester tactics?
1. Not so plain and simple. You are Santa Claus, plain and simple. Great, glad we settled that one.
2. Yes. Your example is PRECISELY why I'm troubled by the use of Megan's Law, where convicts are run out of town wherever they go. Get it? Proper forum? So far none of you who are ok with the psychopaths (notice I refuse to refer to them as protesters since I actually tend to respect protesters) have taken me up on the offer of giving me your address so that I can properly vent my frustration with those who interrupt precious class time, a conduct on par with the rape of Nanking (I'll call your child rapist and raise you a genocide).
While I'm at it, let's just expose the fuzzy logic behind the whole shabang. If you're protesting the policy and the consequences, then you should be aware that the memos were repudiated and Yoo was fired. Now of course, Joe likes to point that out to show just HOW far off the memos were, fair point. But then all they are currently, it appears, is just ummm useless documents? So if the theatrics can't have anything to do with current policies or current treatments, then what the hell are they about? That he teaches here as some so proudly derrided? That gets us to square one. A class was interrupted by those who have no ties to the school or the class to tell *cough* those IN the class, that he shouldn't be teaching here. Ummm, call it a straw man if you like, but sounds like people who can't live without a cause to fight for to me.
In related news, the treatment of prisoners in Gitmo has improved markedly. The Department of Defense has issued a letter of apology to the fine folks of WCW for interrupting their sleep.
3. This leads me to Joe's comment. Clearly the only way to do anything is by protesting. I think it's time you left the 60's. The previous sentence paid for by the RNC...since if you don't protest you must be a Republican. Naturally.
"When I was at Boalt, a large number of students --including me-- signed a petition asking Yoo to repudiate or resign. Mind you, we weren't asking the administration to fire him, we were simply asking Yoo to act on his own volition."
Well I can't speak for others, but I can at least answer for myself. I believe that petition was passed around before I started at Boalt last year. But with the parameters you give, I would say that's an acceptable protest for me.
That is:
1. Students definitely have a right to ask Yoo to resign or repudiate.
2. Yoo has a right to respond positively, negatively, or not at all.
That said, I don't support asking the administration to fire him, because I still believe that Yoo has a right to be here and continue his teaching and research. Thus, while protests are fine, it should be focused directly at Yoo, as Yoo alone should be the person to decide if such protest makes his position at Boalt untenable.
But as you stated you guys weren't ssking the adminsitration to fire him, so I'll accept that. However, the impressions I get from a lot of the anti-Yoo crowd is that they don't draw this distinction. They'd love nothing better for Dean Edley to find a way to kick Yoo out of Boalt. (and throw him in some torture chamber as well). I can't say that I agree.
At the end of the day though, there's no single correct way of bringing about change. Law students are inherently less protest-minded because by dedicating ourselves to the law, most of us have bought into the system enough that any change we hope to make will be within this system. There are both strengths and weaknesses to this approach.
Likewise, more radical action has its own strenghts and limitations. At the end of the day, I think it takes both. Some people have to work inside, and some have to work out. It isn't always pretty. Methods may conflict. Waging a successful battle and making substantive change requires fighting the good fight on multiple fronts.
===
Did any of this make sense? Probably doesn't matter as Armageddon's coming anyway. I mean the White Sox and Red Sox just won the World Series in back to back years. That must be a sign of the apocalyspse!
Joe, put aside my hyperbole and you're still sort of arguing that the absence of protesting is basically like wearing an elephant on my sleeve.
It feels strange to have to say this to a bunch of law students that ought to know better, but not everyone who enables or helps something bad to happen is equally responsible for that thing. Everyone who voted for Bush has some responsibility for what his administration did, as do those who failed to vote. Obviously, Yoo is a lot closer to it than that, but he was still very far from being the one making decisions about how actual detainees will be treated. Calling him a war criminal is the sort of hyperbolic rhetoric that makes people stop listening. Whether you are arguing or protesting, you are better off trying to be respectful of the people on the other side, and if you really hope to convince anyone (and not just make the news or intimidate your enemies) it would help to avoid language that makes you sound like you can't make the relevant conceptual distinctions.
It's at least debatable as to whether Yoo is guilty of war crimes.
I believe members of the German Ministry of Justice (their DOJ) were found guilty at Nuremberg for actions similar to those of Yoo (providing the legal justification for the Nazi war crimes). So there is precedent.
I think you Boalt students need to focus your energy elsewhere, not in protesting Yoo - he knows what he did and there's little point in reminding him. Instead, you should put pressure on the Boalt administration to have him fired. Why not organize an effort to get Boalt alumni to stop donating money to the school so long as Yoo is employed there?
Hello. This very interesting thread was just brought to my attention, and because my name is invoked in it, I thought I'd write in to clarify something. Perhaps it's a quibble, but I think it's potentially an important quibble.
I was, indeed, working at OLC when the August 2002 memo was written. But that doesn't give me any special authority to opine on its merits -- except to the extent that I can reflect upon some traditional OLC practices that appear to have been ignored in this case. Just to be clear: I did not know anything about the memo while I worked at OLC -- not even of its existence.
To be sure, I have been an outspoken critic of the substance of the memo (see my numerous posts on Balkinization). In this respect, however, I was merely following up on the extraordinary repudiation of that memo by OLC itself, in December 2004. (See, e.g., my inital post on the subject: http://balkin.blogspot.com/2005/01/
understanding-olc-torture-memos-part-i.html.) Importantly, although I think the memo was egregiously misguided in many respects, I have not said, and would not say, that "it is one of the most intellectually dishonest pieces of garbage to ever come out of the DOJ." I have no reason to think that John Yoo was being *dishonest* when he drafted the opinion (nor that Jay Bybee was dishonest when he signed it). To the contrary: From what I know of them, I have every reason to think both that they sincerely believed what they were writing, and that they thought the posture adopted in the memo (essentially, articulating what they believed was the most pro-Executive views available among what they perceived as the range of reasonable views) was an appropriate one for the Office to take. I disagree, strongly, on both scores, but I don't think the question, strictly speaking, is one of dishonesty. A subtle distinction, perhaps, but one that may be of importance to some in trying to determine the proper responses to the torture memo and to its authors, and, most importantly, in thinking about how OLC practices -- and lawyering in the Executive branch generally -- can be changed to prevent similarly problematic legal analysis from being tendered in the future.
Thanks for bearing with me,
Marty Lederman
Marty,
Thanks for weighing in, I greatly respect your opinion on this topic.
Re Yoo/Bybee's honesty, how would you explain their failure to mention Youngstown Sheet & Tube in the August 2002 memo?
I don't know how the ethics rules for OLC lawyers vary from state laws governing professional conduct, but it's black letter law for lawyers before a court that they are required to disclose contrary authority.
Clearly, Youngstown is strong authority contrary to the position taken by Yoo and Bybee in the memo. Weren't they ethically required to disclose it, and isn't their failure to do so evidence of bad faith?
Consider also that according to several media reports, Yoo was approached by the CIA prior to writing the memo, with requests for him to reach the outcome he did. They literally had detainees in their custody they wanted to torture, and sought permission to do so.
That by itself doesn't prove bad faith, but the memo's statutory construction of the federal torture statute doesn't even pass the smell test. It sure looks to me like the authors were trying extremely hard to reach the desired outcome.
Marty, whether or not these jerks
"sincerely believed what they were writing" has no bearing on whether they are guilty of a war crime. Ignorance is a piss poor defense for aiding and abetting of torture.
I mean, maybe the defense lawyers at Nuremberg should have tried arguing along these lines: "I have every reason to think my clients sincerely believed in what they were doing".
Anyway, so Yoo's was an honest mistake, right? Just like the grunts who carried out the torture and are in jail for it. Are you saying he shouldnt be tried?
Pointless Posturing?
Protesting torture is "pointless posturing"? You'd make a GOOD GERMAN!
Yes, it's been 3 years, but has torture gone away?
"Julia Tarver, lawyer for some of the prisoners at Guantanamo, has
reported that prisoners who were on hunger strike in Guantanamo were being tortured with forcible insertion of feeding tubes. Prisoners are being held down by six riot MP’s and having tubes – some of which have already been used on other prisoners, without sterilization – forced down them.
Her clients have not been charged with any crime, but have been held for four years. (For more on this, see an interview with Julia Tarver on http://www.democracynow.org .)
Is this okay with you? Will you just turn your head? Or will you resist?"
--From World Cant Wait website
John Yoo, an indictable war criminal is teaching constitutional law at Berkeley.
And you're ok with that?! In fact people have come to accept it. It's part of the "new normalcy" that Cheney talked about. You're learning to get used to it. You turn the page everytime you see these horrific images. You walk away pretending these things are not happening. You're complicit. And some get upset when confronted with the truth!
So, just like John Yoo was asked to take the leash, we ask all students who are not taking a stand - and acting to derail the ugly direction this society is headed in - to also "take the leash."
Shame on people who keep silent. Or privately disapprove. Or better yet, learn to live with it. Want to write a paper about how Nazi Germany became Nazi Germany? Look around!
Well, we're not going to allow that without a fight! We're the millions in this country and worldwide who refuse to live in "our little world," while in the REAL WORLD people are getting tortured in our name.
People like Michael Ratner, Howard Zinn, Cornel West, Cindy Sheehan, Gore Vidal, Esther Kaplan, Michael Eric Dyson, Russell Banks, Rev. Earl Kooperkamp and thousands of others who have endorsed the Call for walk outs November 2nd.
So, again, John Yoo, the legal architect of torture, an EICHMANN in your midst, and you call our protest "pointless"?
We're not going to wait around until the situation gets NAZI enough to protest.
On November 2nd we're launching a movement that aims for nothing short of driving out the Bush regime!
Join us. History will judge us.
A wise man (John Steele) once said, "If you realized how rarely other people think about you, than you would care less about what they think about you," and so it will be with history and your 11/2 protest.
You must learn to accept what is. Stop fighting the inevitable, after all you personally profit from it every day.
I think that it is interesting that reactionaries can't see how ludicrous it is to actually call Yoo a war criminal, or to compare today's situation with Nazi Germany. What is going on today has been going on in this country since its founding. Bush is merely the only president since the introduction of the mass media who has been unable to keep it more or less secret. In a way it isn't even Bush's fault that he hasn't been able to keep the "dirty little necessities" secret. 9/11 and the resulting conflicts have drawn such interest and media attention that the standard compliance practices have become widely known.
In short Bush is not the first, he is not the only, he will not be the last, and you benefit every day of you miserable bitter little life from the actions taken by men like Yoo.
Note to any further posters here, I don't think the classroom is a proper forum to spread the misguided message of well funded professional protesters and neither is this blog.
Tacky? Yes.
I see that Stephen Rhode's message was deleted...oh, I see, once you get opinions in opposition to the nonsense found in most (not all) of the first 70 or so posts, then it's time to stop...not as much fun...by the way, well funded? what is that all about?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
I'll delete it without fail. You're using my blog to spread the propaganda of an organization that's now my mortal enemy. I draw the line there.
"mortal enemy"? hahahaah! dont you think you take yourself a little too seriously armen? beware your enemy, lest you become him.
Well Dr. Demento is my other mortal enemy (obscure Simpsons reference).
"I'll delete without fail..."
what you scared of?
Tacky? no.
Fascist? YES.
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[URL=http://www.rehab-aldammam.org] مكافحة حشرات الدمام [/URL]
[URL=http://www.rehab-aldammam.org/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D9%86%D9%82%D9%84-%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%AE%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A7%D8%AB/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D9%86%D9%82%D9%84-%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A7%D8%AB-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%85/]شركات نقل الاثاث بالدمام [/URL]
[URL=http://www.rehab-aldammam.org/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D9%85%D9%83%D8%A7%D9%81%D8%AD%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AD%D8%B4%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%B4-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%AA/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%B1%D8%B4-%D9%85%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%85/]شركة رش مبيدات بالدمام [/URL]
[URL=http://www.forsan-almadinah.com/]تنظيف خزانات المدينة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.forsan-almadinah.com/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%81%D9%84%D9%84-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%86%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A9/]شركة تنظيف فلل بالمدينة المنورة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.forsan-almadinah.com/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D9%86%D9%82%D9%84-%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%AE%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A7%D8%AB/%D9%86%D9%82%D9%84-%D8%B9%D9%81%D8%B4-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AF%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%86%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A9/]نقل عفش بالمدينة المنورة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.amjad-jeddah.org/]تنظيف فلل جدة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.amjad-jeddah.org/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D9%86%D9%82%D9%84-%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%AE%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%86-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%AB%D8%A7%D8%AB/%D9%86%D9%82%D9%84-%D8%B9%D9%81%D8%B4-%D8%AC%D8%AF%D8%A9/]نقل عفش بجدة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.amjad-jeddah.org/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%85%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%A8%D8%AD-%D8%A8%D8%AC%D8%AF%D8%A9/]شركة تنظيف مسابح بجدة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.nsmat-jeddah.org/]شركة تنظيف جدة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.nsmat-jeddah.org/%D8%B9%D8%B2%D9%84-%D9%88%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AE%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%AA/]تنظيف الخزانات بجدة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.nsmat-jeddah.org/%D8%B9%D8%B2%D9%84-%D9%88%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AE%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%AA/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D8%AE%D8%B2%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A8%D8%AC%D8%AF%D8%A9/]شركة تنظيف خزانات بجدة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.nile7.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D9%86%D9%82%D9%84-%D8%A3%D8%AB%D8%A7%D8%AB-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%AC%D9%85%D8%B9%D8%A9] شركة نقل أثاث بالمجمعة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.nile7.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%87%D9%81%D9%88%D9%81] شركة تنظيف بيارات بالهفوف [/URL]
[URL=http://www.nile7.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D9%81%D9%84%D9%84-%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A3%D8%B3-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D9%86%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A9] شركة تنظيف فلل برأس التنورة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.rehab-aldammam.org/%D8%AE%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D8%B3%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%83-%D9%88%D9%83%D8%B4%D9%81-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AA%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%AA/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%85/]شركة تنظيف بيارات بالدمام [/URL]
[URL=http://www.kema-dammam.org/%d8%ae%d8%af%d9%85%d8%a7%d8%aa-%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%aa%d9%86%d8%b8%d9%8a%d9%81/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d8%aa%d9%86%d8%b8%d9%8a%d9%81-%d9%85%d9%86%d8%a7%d8%b2%d9%84-%d8%a8%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%af%d9%85%d8%a7%d9%85/]شركة تنظيف منازل بالدمام [/URL]
[URL=http://www.hamd-dammam.org/%d8%ae%d8%af%d9%85%d8%a7%d8%aa-%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%aa%d9%86%d8%b8%d9%8a%d9%81/%d8%b4%d8%b1%d9%83%d8%a9-%d8%aa%d9%86%d8%b8%d9%8a%d9%81-%d8%a8%d8%a7%d9%84%d8%af%d9%85%d8%a7%d9%85/]شركة تنظيف بالدمام [/URL]
[URL=http://www.nile7.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D8%AE%D8%B2%D9%8A%D9%86-%D8%A3%D8%AB%D8%A7%D8%AB-%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A3%D8%B3-%D8%AA%D9%86%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A9] شركة تخزين أثاث برأس تنورة [/URL]
[URL=http://www.nile7.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%B8%D9%8A%D9%81-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%84%D9%85] شركة تنظيف بالدلم [/URL]
[URL=http://www.nile7.com/%D8%B4%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%A9-%D9%85%D9%83%D8%A7%D9%81%D8%AD%D8%A9-%D8%AD%D8%B4%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%B4-%D9%85%D8%A8%D9%8A%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%AA-%D8%A8%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AF%D9%84%D9%85] شركة مكافحة حشرات ورش مبيدات بالدلم [/URL]
[URL=http://kenanaonline.com/users/fareeda11]fareeda[/URL]
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غسيل خزانات بالمدينه المنوره
غسيل خزانات بالمدينه المنوره
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غسيل خزانات بالمدينه المنوره
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غسيل خزانات بالمدينه المنوره
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