Welcome to the Rock
Alright Boalt admits, this is an open thread for you to ask questions to current and former Boalties. I reserve the right to delete any stupid questions. Commenters should feel free to mock stupid questions. But otherwise, ask away.
A friend IMs me: "so this chick was telling me about this game where you write down all the gunners' names on a piece of paper, and you mark it off like bingo when they participate, and when you get bingo, you have to participate and work bingo into your answer somehow."
Excellent game!!! And I post that as an answer to the whole competitive questions coming up. Boalt is competitive in the sense that there are some people who try to do their best. There are others who are more than happy to get by. I have never encountered an instance of anyone hampering some else's learning or not even helping out. I'm a lazy bum and tend to miss a lot of classes, but I've always gotten notes whenever I've asked for them. In fact, if you have good notes and outlines for Frickey's Legislation, you know where to send them. With that said, I think the best way to find out is by visiting the schools and snooping around. I don't have anything to gain by someone choosing Boalt over another school, but I do want an accurate image of my school to be portrayed. And I still haven't e-mailed DO about my rankings. :)
Happy Spring Break!
A friend IMs me: "so this chick was telling me about this game where you write down all the gunners' names on a piece of paper, and you mark it off like bingo when they participate, and when you get bingo, you have to participate and work bingo into your answer somehow."
Excellent game!!! And I post that as an answer to the whole competitive questions coming up. Boalt is competitive in the sense that there are some people who try to do their best. There are others who are more than happy to get by. I have never encountered an instance of anyone hampering some else's learning or not even helping out. I'm a lazy bum and tend to miss a lot of classes, but I've always gotten notes whenever I've asked for them. In fact, if you have good notes and outlines for Frickey's Legislation, you know where to send them. With that said, I think the best way to find out is by visiting the schools and snooping around. I don't have anything to gain by someone choosing Boalt over another school, but I do want an accurate image of my school to be portrayed. And I still haven't e-mailed DO about my rankings. :)
Happy Spring Break!
Labels: 0L/1L Advice, Law School
posted by Armen Adzhemyan at 1:05 AM
81 Comments:
Hey there - a few:
(a) is it crazy to live in san francisco and commute over?
(b) does the whole pass, honors, etc. grade thing actually make the school less competitive (based on your prior entries - seems like maybe a no)?
(c) how hard/easy is it, really, to get a good job in the summers and after graduation? are boalt grads "set for life"?
I can comment on question (a). I commute from SF and it's been fine so far. It certainly helps to live near BART or the freeway, if you plan to drive. Note that both BART and the parking pass are on the expensive side. There is also the transbay bus option, but that is not for everyone.
In response to (b), I would say that Boalt is less competitive than other schools, but not necessarily because of the grading system. it's less competitive because the students who go here don't care to compete with one another. But it is nice to be able to pretty much blow a class off and still get that P (as opposed to a C or D at another school). While there is a lot of griping about grades on this blog (isn't that what blogs are for?), I can pretty much guarantee you that we are all very happy to be living in a H/P world.
In terms of (c), it's relatively easy but there's always exceptions. Whether or not you're "set for life" depends on what you want to do. But it is as easy to get a big firm job at Boalt as it is at any school in the country, so I guess you're as "set" here as anywhere else.
One thing to add--I came from the East Coast and was concerned it might be tough to get an East Coast job from Boalt. I was totally wrong about that. NY and DC firms LOVE Boalt students, becuase they already have too many NY, Boston, and DC students. On the flip side, a lot of the SF firms recruit more or less in California only. So you get the best of both worlds here.
I am a transfer student which gives me a unique perspective on Boalt. I, and many of the other transfers would agree that Boalt is head and shoulders above our previous schools in many respects. (Some first second and third tier schools are represented in this diverse pool of opinion.)
The lunch programs are amazing. I have no interest in IP work, but I attend 2 catered lunches a week at a minimum on various IP topics. The food is decent and by the time I graduate I will have a decent IP education without ever having taken a class.
Not coincidently these lunch programs and many on other subjects are given by partners at major law firms who are basically whoring themselves to you so that you might show an interest in their firm during the On-Campus-Interview-Process.
The course selection here is also amazing.
Its a great school, you should all accept
***Dean Edley once you read this you can deposit the money at Wells Fargo to bank account #0362 068348. Thanks a bunch.***
Regarding question c: if you are good enough to get into Boalt you will be the type who will work hard enough to land a job. You have to be beyond apathetic to not land a summer or post-graduation job. Yes, you are set for life with a Boalt J.D., assuming you put the necessary minimal amount of work into it.
Question b: I agree with the previous poster - we just are not a competitive bunch of people here at Boalt and the P/H/HH system makes it even better. Because we all had very high undergrad GPA's we were all competitive in our past lives, but the overall atmosphere does not encourage that sort of behavior. Plus there are a lot of people here not straight out of undergrad who have specific career goals in mind; and unless that goal is to clerk on the Supreme Court or go into academia they are not too concerned with getting all HH's and H's. It's all about connections.
I love Boalt!
Anonymous Prospective Student, what do you want to study? Boalt's professors can teach about many wonderful subjects, but some subjects are more wonderful than others. Some of my friends' interests have been harder to peruse here than at other schools.
Hi everyone :)
I'm a current Cal undergrad and fall admit, and I feel that Boalt is really the best fit for me academically. However, I don't want to regret not getting a change of scenery/new experience if I stay in Berkeley. So...I have a couple of questions:
1. If anyone reading this did your undergraduate work at Cal, do you regret staying at Berkeley for law school?
2. Can anyone speak to the quality of the constitutional law classes @ Boalt?
Thank you so muuch for your help!
Well I'll take no. 2: In general the classes that are taught in almost all law schools are not THAT different. The conlaw scholars at Boalt are top rate (Jesse Choper, Goodwin Liu, John Yoo, Ian Haney-Lopez, and can we finally snag Amar from Hastings?)
Let's start with (c):
As a Boalt grad from 03, I have a somewhat different tale. The economy sucked, and a number of us had a hell of a time finding jobs. Brobeck had just imploded, the tech sector was in the toilet, and bay area jobs were scarce, as were jobs elsewhere. You had some firms that would have a dozen summer associates, and then make offer to three of them. So no, Boalt doesn't guarantee that you'll be "set for life" - no law school can.
(b), as I remember it:
As for grades, I think most people act less competitive, but because you have such a concentration of large brains, for all practical intents and purposes, it is competitive. The curve ensures that you compete with your classmates, whether you want to or not. Most people don't act competitive, but the underlying reality is still there.
finally, (a):
San Francisco has fewer loonies per square meter than Berkeley. But going back and forth is a pain in the butt. If you're willing to pay the Bart fare over, and if you're willing to sit on the train for half an hour or so, it might not be too bad. (although, you'll probably have to take muni to Bart, from most of the city.) Personally, I'd rather live in the east bay, and have a simpler commute, but I knew plenty of people who commuted from frisco and were quite happy doing so. It depends on your personality.
(Sorry to put a damper on the Boalt love fest, but that's just how my experiences went. I'm a realist, at heart, I guess. :) )
Regarding competition, some have said that half the school is academically clued in. Boalt's top 40-50% could probably do very well at all the higher ranked schools. I don't know about Boalt's bottom.
Some have said it's a tale of two schools. Perhaps that's what P-culture brings on. Thank the supreme being for the P! It makes this school more sane and more chill. Anyway, there are PLENTY of opportunities for slumming here. P=JD, baby! Most 2L's and 3L's seem to have pretty much left the grade game. And that is a GOOD THING. As I see it, most Boalt students - at least 2L's and 3L's - use their spring break to have fun, relax, and chill.
Try transit.511.org to see how long it would take to commute various neighborhoods in SF.
To Sarah --
To respond to your #1: If anyone reading this did your undergraduate work at Cal, do you regret staying at Berkeley for law school?
I went to Cal, and graduated in '05. I had the same fears. I do not regret it at ALL and I would not make a different decision.
First, it's a totally environment. At least in your first year, you spend a lot of the year in Boalt -- either in class or the library. Don't worry about running into the same people, etc. If at all you may be sick of the same food.
Second, I found it to my advantage. From what I observed in my 1L colleagues, adjusting to Berkeley was a tough ride, let alone to law school. Having the comfortability of the law school already set made it that much easier for me to focus on school. It was also comforting to have my closest friends still in the area, and they served as great escapes from law school.
Third, if you have a lot of Cal pride like me, you'll have so many opportunities to do more. I am connecting with some of my undergrad professors to publish, take their grad classes, etc. I am also getting more involved with Cal Alumni Association. Being at Boalt has given me more of an ownership of UC Berkeley and it's a great feeling to have.
And fourth, I don't know about you, but during my senior year of college I had so many things I wish I had done. I had never been to Tilden, to Napa, to Berkeley Art Museum, Lawrence Livermore, etc. I'm finding all that time now. I didn't have to be sad at the end of senior year about not doing X, Y, Z at Cal because I knew had 3 more years.
That said, GO BEARS! (Happy Belated Charter Day).
To Sarah -- I know it seems hard to imagine when college is your whole world, but you're just a student! Real life hasn't even begun yet. Choose a school based on your academic goals, and afterward you'll have the rest of your life to experience living anywhere you want. :)
To anyone considering Boalt -- I admit that I didn't really "comparison shop" schools because we own a home and weren't going to move out of the area, so it was Boalt, Hastings, or nothing. Maybe if I had done my homework I wouldn't have been so surprised about the egregiously weak transactional law curriculum. While I was there, they almost didn't offer Securities Law (a very basic class that the Corporate Law people *have* to take) when I was a 2L or 3L because they didn't have anyone to teach it (thanks to Larry Sonsini for saving the day).
When I started working there were a lot of things I had to learn on the job (that the other first-year associates already knew), that I should have learned in law school.
But overall, I think Boalt is a good choice for most law students, and can't think of any classmates who regretted their choice to go there. Good luck with your decision.
I have to disagree with a couple of points in g's post.
With no offense whatsoever meant to g (g makes some very good points), I think it's important, Sarah, to remember that everyone has their own reasons for their law school decision. In this case, g was married (or at least living with someone) and a homeowner, while you are an undergrad. These are very different situations. I'm sure you and all the other admits are getting lots of advice right now, but always keep in mind your decision's motivating factors relative to those of the advice-giver.
Obviously part of your decision should be based on acadamic goals, but that shouldn't be the only--or even the primary--reason for your decision. When real life starts (and thankfully law school, especially for someone right out of undergrad, ain't totally real life yet!!) you may want to narrow your range of options in terms of what to do and where to live. Law school gives you 3 more years to live someplace cool and learn interesting new stuff--the best classes are often ones that will have little bearing on your future career.
Part of what makes Boalt great is that we get the top-notch academics, but there are so many other reasons to come here--students, public interest opportunities, LOCATION, faculty, etc. Whether you go to Boalt or another top school, you'll get a great legal education, so think about what other things are most important to you, besides the academics that all these schools offer.
To speak specifically about the supposed dearth of transactional classes, it is true that the curriculum is litigation heavy. But this is true at every top law school!! When you interview for a job, the firms understand that you're unlikely to have taken any transactional classes--in fact, every interviewer I had presumed that we didn't yet know the difference between transactional and litigation law (and Sarah, if you do know the difference already, you are way ahead of the game).
Keep in mind: law school is for learning about the law. Your post-grad job is for learning to be a lawyer. g's experience aside, the demand for Boalt students by employers makes it pretty clear that Boalt students are consistently prepared for whatever career they want to pursue.
I guess my overall point here is, admits often get caught up in ambiguous details--like the number of transactional classes, or a particular professor, or a small difference in rank--rather than just thinking about where they are going to be happiest. If you're accepted at Boalt I'm sure that you have other great options, so instead of parsing these tiny--and ultimately unimportant--differences, figure out what will make the experience enjoyable for you, and then go to the school that you think will be the best for you.
Simple enough, right?
If you want a school with excellent, amazing teachers, Boalt is for you. If you want that school to also have great facilities and responsive student services, registrar, etc., don't come here. Go to a fancier school, like Stanford or HLS, if you got in.
Actually, I always got very good service from the Boalt registrar. (Try the main grad one on campus, or, God forbid, the undergrad one, if you want true horror.)
As for profs, its like everywhere else: some are good, some are okay, and a couple suck.
The facilities do generally blow though. And the new building they want is, based on the drawings they put in the little alumni book, absolutely hideous.
Hi there,
How easy/hard is it to get into classes at Boalt? I have read that it can be difficult. Is that generally the case?
Thanks!
I'm a 3L and I only had one semester where it was difficult to get into classes -- my 2d semester 1L year. Which worked out fine, as I could only choose two classes anyhow.
Certain classes are quite difficult to get into -- Fletcher's Fed Courts, Swift's Evidence class -- but the majority have ample room. We even have *two* Intro to IP classes this year!
As for lack of transactional courses, I want to litigate but one of my favorite classes thus far was IP Transactions.
And don't forget about all the different clinical options we have. there are a lot of cool things you can do besides sit in a classroom at Boalt.
Boalt is back in the elite eight! Higher LSATs were the key.
Sarah (& Other Admits),
I was a parent admit, and as one of the commentators pointed out, life status matters. So being at Cal for undergrad and grad also ensured continuity and minimal disruption for my daughter, which was huge for me.
Anyhow:
I went to CAL Undergrad (psych) and Boalt Hall. It is like two different places and I do not regret it for a second.
First, at Boalt, you are relegated to a small corner of the Berkeley campus. It's like the rest of the place doesn't exist anymore.
I hated Cal Undergrad (campus beauty excluded) because I always felt like I was in a swamp of strangers... At Boalt, there are less than a thousand of you - you will see faces day after day and begin to recognize people. Plus, they give you a locker. That's cool. The experiences are completely different - with Boalt being way better than undergrad.
Feel free to email me if you want to talk more about it. Same offer to admit-parents, as I started at Boalt with a six year old
exactapproximations@gmail.com
Oh yeah, as for Con Law classes, Frickey was awful, can't speak to the others. But the man was brilliant in Legislation.
Good post N&B, nice lookin' out for the future 1Ls.
1:37,
Where did you find out our new ranking? US News doesn't release it until 4/1.
Thanks
They are supposed to hit the newstands later but they became available earlier today through the magic of bulletin boards and posting sites, and are now being posted virally at many places. Boalt is indeed No. 8 and is tied with Michigan and Virginia.
Back in the top 10...er, 11... where we belong!
That we're tied with Michigan and UVA shows just how pointless US News rankings are.
original anon poster here - thank you so much for the thoughtful responses!
i'm an IP gal, so Boalt is defintitely seeming like my top choice. looking forward to admitted students day to seal the deal.
oh, and one more question - (d) does law school really suck as much as people say it does? i work a lot of hours at a tech company now. having my weekends to myself is nice . . .
if you work a lot of hours at a tech company, you probably won't work as much in law school, unless you want to. I'm in IP and I love my weekends (well, after the 1L year I have enjoyed them).
Here's the thing about the "does law school suck or is it great" question:
It all depends.
But I don't mean that in a bullshit "it's what you make it" or "you have to find your niche" platidunious way. I mean the law (and the study of it) is either going to click with you or its not. In my experience and that of my friends (and really in observing everyone at Boalt) it is VERY binary.
The law is such a freakish, complex, esoteric concept, that for some people their synapses mesh, and for others the light never goes on.
It's like being able to tie a cherry stem with your tongue; or whether you can juggle; or if your ring finger is longer than your middle finger. It just IS, and there's nothing you can do about it.
I knew both of these feelings in college. In organic chemistry, things just made sense. I went to class, studied a few hours a week, got an A on all the tests, and that was that.
In physics, I was a wreck. I hated the subject, I couldn't visualize anything, it wasn't intuitive. I skipped problems on the problem set. I copied off my neighbors notes. I had to struggle and bust my ass just to pull a passing grade.
Does that make sense? No! But it's how it went down.
I think the law is very similar. If it clicks with you, you don't mind sitting through class, concepts make sense (eventually), you don't get too stressed about finals, and by the end of the semester, you start to see a coherent web of rules called "property" or "contracts."
If you don't, well, then its rough. I'm not saying you'll fail. On the contrary, you'll probably do fine -- but in between will be endless hours in the library, frustration, tears, anger, drinking. You won't have a life and you'll feel guilty when you're not studying and you'll HATE those people above who "get it."
How do you know which you'll be? I wish I knew. Just go, I guess.
Incidentally, I was lucky enough to find myself in the former camp. I don't know if there's anything I could look back on to say, "Oh, so THAT'S why law school made sense!"
Perhaps the closest I can come is that, in senior year of college, I had a lengthy, serious, and ridiculous argument with a friend over whether Don McClean was a "one hit wonder" or not. I made statements like, "If the only song you can name by him is American Pie, then by definition he is a one-hit wonder." And my friend would counter, "You're judging by present standards. The question turns on whether any of his singles cracked the top-10 at the time." And then I'd say, "Well, let's compare those two results in the context of other, mutually-agreed-upon one-hit wonders."
We took this VERY seriously. It went on for like 20 minutes.
Now, I know I'm crazy, but bear with me for a second.
The point is that if you can create meaning, interest, and rational debate out of ABSOLUTELY MEANINGLESS AND ARBIRTRAY systems(and enjoy doing so) law school might be for you.
And also if you really hate American Pie.
To paraphrase Joe Pesci, everything the above poster said is bull shit. Thank you. And no it's not the hangover and/or booze talking.
Vinny Gambini: Everything that guy just said is bullshit... Thank you.
D.A. Jim Trotter: Objection. Counsel's entire opening statement is argument.
Judge Chamberlain Haller: Sustained. Counselor's entire opening statement, with the exception of "thank you", will be stricken from the record.
I must confess, I am a bit confused about first year classes. You can a random mix of the core subjects each semester with two electives in the spring? How many classes do you usually take each semester the first year( or the second and third for that matter)
There are seven required first year classes: Contracts, Property, Criminal Law, Torts, Civil Procedure, Legal Research & Writing, and Written & Oral Advocacy.
The first semester consists of four classes. Everyone takes Legal Research & Writing and Civil Procedure. You will also be assigned to two classes out of the mix of remaining first-year classes (Contracts, Property, Criminal Law, and Torts).
During the second semester, you will take five classes. Everyone takes Written & Oral Advocacy, and in addition you will take the two remaining first-year classes that you didn't take during the first semester, as well as two electives of your choice.
Regarding does law school suck? I assumed it would and was ready for three years of hell, but I actually really enjoy it! I wish I knew if it is because of Boalt or because I really like law. Pay close attention to what the students say on admit day - read between the lines, and it will help you make the decision of whether or not you should go to school x, y, or z.
The anti-Yoo gestapo have been eerily quiet the last few weeks. I've only seen a couple of people with tin foil hats, orange jumpsuits, and bdsm masks wandering around.
I sincerely hope the administration has a plan in place in case they try to disrupt admit day.
I think it would be great if we imported some English bobbies and gave them large nets on the ends of poles. They could chases the loons about Benny Hill style and throw them into the back of a paddy wagon.
It would be great fun, and the new admits probably wouldn't realize that it was for real they would just assume we put on a show for them. Little do they know that Boalt is the largest voluntary booby hatch this side of the great Mississipp
I think the 0Ls should be safe from the anti-Yoo gestapo. They didn't come around last year. Besides, we should let the newbies get a "real" feel for what Boalt is like. Maybe some of us should volunteer and steal a few 0L's bags while they take a tour through the library.
What are your thoughts on deferring admission?
Depends on your age, what you intend to do while deferring, how burnt out you are, whether you'll incur serious debt during your time off, etc.
i have to say, that 10% admissions rate makes me feel a little better about being rejected last year... and good job for moving up to being tied with us over here in the cold land of the midwest (though it's a balmy 60 something degrees here today, thank god)...
and whoever seemed to feel that being tied with michigan was some sort of insult to boalt should maybe calm down and realize that we're both really great schools with top notch faculty, really smart and motivated students, and great reputations. i like to think of us as similar schools with collegial environments... you guys just have a better shot at that IP job in SF than I do (luckily I want to go to LA).
(For those who don't know me (most people) I lived in Berkeley last year with a Boalt student and with several Boalt students last summer, so while I certainly have never attended your fine institution, I observed some of its finest at work).
But hey Boalties- try getting a job in Detroit! I mean.. um... crap...
I deferred for a year, and it is one of the best decisions I've made. As i recall, Boalt was very open to granting deferrals. At admitted students day a few years ago, I sidled up to Ed Tom, the Dean of Admission, and asked him about the possibility of deferring. I believe the quote was something to the effect of "So long as you commit to ultimately coming, and don't plan on spending the year watching TV on your mother's couch, I think we can work something out."
I think deferrals can be good if you use it to do something productive. I deferred and it was one of the best decisions I made. My understanding is that the earlier you apply for a deferral the better.
I think if you're just finishing college now, you should seriously consider deferring. Of course there are those who come straight from college and are wildly successful and happy in law school. But it does the majority of people a world of good to get a little perspective and distance from the undergrad life - especially if you haven't had significant work/"real world" experience in college.
In re schedule of classes:
There is no guarantee that Civ Pro is 1st semester. It varies, but generally everyone will have one or two classes the same during the first semester. During our year it was torts and crim law.
Yeah, defer if you're just finishing college. I think the kids who come straight from college are making a huge mistake. Live a little. Get out there. Make some money. Get experiences that you can't get in the school environment before you saddle yourself with over a hundred thousand dollars in debt.
The problem is that your parents want to see you on track toward a career, so they pressure you into grad. school. Fine. But jumping into law school may not be the best thing for you.
Rumor has it that starting this year (current 1Ls included), CivPro is always first semester (makes more sense, for purposes of Written & Oral Advocacy).
Separately, I think that going straight from undergrad (which I did) is an advantage. You graduate law school and become an attorney at the age of 25. You can pursue another degree, work one more job, travel before settling, etc. - that could probably be limited after several years.
I recommend at least a year off too if you are just coming from college. Starting out on a legal career at 26 or 27 versus 25 doesn't make one ounce of difference. Indeed, it helps to have some real world work experience both for your resume and your ability to deal with co-workers, etc. once you are working.
Tell us about the LRAP.
I don't mean to be overly cynnical, but I can't help but not take any 0L seriously when asking about the LRAP. My basic answer to you is this: don't worry, the firm pays for all bar expenses.
Do all big firms pay bar expenses? My understanding is that most give you a $10K advance to support you while studying and pay for the class (several thousand as well) but that some make the advance into a grant.
And I don't think it's stupid to ask about LRAP. Boalt students have been working very hard to improve it and it looks like their work is paying off. Does anyone know the new details? My understanding was that they will pay up to ~100K in debt over ten years provided you work at a non-profit or government law job and make under 65K per year. Under this regime, if you owe under 100K, make under 65K and have a qualifying job, you won't have to pay anything to get debt-free in 10 years. Is that right?
I spent three years after undergrad doing other things and I notice that, without fail, people who go straight through refer to that time spent doing other things as "taking time off." That shows some lack of perspective. It's not taking time off (like a two-week vacation), it's choosing to do something other than school. My most interesting classmates, with the best things to say in class (with some exceptions, granted) did not go straight through. Choose other opportunities before law school--its a lot harder to travel, try a different field, etc. once you have $100k to pay back. Who cares if you are a lawyer at 25?
Don't come straight from law school into undergrad!! Defy your intertia and any ethnic/cultural/economic pressures "to go straight to professional school." Do something else with your life for a year or two. The kids straight out of law school, on average, just don't bring as interesting work experiences as those who did something else between college and law school. You can come straight from undergrad, and you'll do fine and get a lot of law school, but your experience will be that much better with some other experiences under your belt.
Completely off topic. Looks like there will be a lot of sad Bruins around Boalt Hall tomorrow.
9:15-
Nice "use of quotations." Your groundbreaking observation that those who don't work before law school don't bring interesting work experience to law school aside, leave your griping about going straight through to those who actually went straight through. I did and I'm loving it. If your 9-5 grind was so great, why did you quit and go to law school?
I want to echo the above poster in re going straight through. If you want to be the tool who offers his/her opinion in every class with the phrase, "Well when I worked as a..." then by all means, defer and work as a...
On the other hand, if you come straight through you will be at the same level as those who have seen the world. Really, you all will be at the same starting point. Besides, you got in without the benefit of having regular fulltime post graduation employment on your resume. You're actually better than them. The only difference is you can mock their age until your throat hurts. Sorry Glasser!
Re: Going straight through
It appears we're all pretty proud of ourselves for whatever decision we happened to make. Perhaps it would be more helpful if we heard from anyone who regrets their decision to either go straight through or take time off.
As for me, I regret going straight through because I ended up being less "interesting" and less concerned about "perspective" than it appears I would be had I deferred.
I dunno Armen. I rather enjoy mocking the youngins. But that's what old geezers like me like to do.
Whenever you remember to do it.
I went straight through from college to law school. I don't recommend it. I mean, it's okay, but not ideal. On one level, I don't know any better because schooling is all I know (at least from the months of September till May since I was a wee kid). But the folks who took time off (or "on" as some call it) don't need to ask the question "What if I had tried something else before committing to law school?" as much as I do. I'm stuck with the "what if" question.
Remember good health and modern science help us live longer. There's no rush to be a lawyer at 25.
I will say this: If your parents are paying for all of law school, it's much less of a trade-off to go straight through. But if you have to pay all that debt yourself, then do something else before getting strapped down with Direct Loans.
So, there. There's some testimony from someone who went straight through. It's doable. It's fine. But think twice or thrice before doing it. Yeah, there are a lot like us (remember that law schools depend on a sizeable number of us "straight throughs" to reliably fill up the class; if you look at the numbers, it's not such a big deal to get into law school straight from college; in fact, bunches of people who take time off in-between, got in while they were in college, and deferred for a few years.)
It's all a personal choice and you can't really make a wrong decision, but I sometimes/often regret not taking some time to get some professional or travel experience before coming to Boalt.
Do you know anybody who has gotten a sub-P?
I'm a 2L and I have never heard about a real case of a particular person getting a sub-P. Just vague rumors about a particular prof. sub-Ping people.
By the way, excellent line in recent email from dean of students' office regarding admit day:
"When talking with admits, my only request is that you not bash other law schools."
I think this blog has done a good job of playing by that rule on its own so far. Nonetheless, regarding the silly US News rankings, Penn at #7?!
BOALT LRAP (an email we received from our dean today):
To Boalt Hall Students:
I write to share with you, in abbreviated form, some of the changes we will be making in the Loan Repayment Assistance Program [LRAP], effective with this year’s graduating class. (There will also be some important changes for recent graduates.) As I have communicated before, the goal in all of this is to revamp our financial aid policies and expenditure levels to better reflect the sharp increases in tuition over the past few years. We will also make changes in grants and scholarships, but the first major piece is LRAP. This program is critical because Boalt’s mission demands that graduating students have freedom of career choice — that debt burdens not be so crushing that our graduates are effectively prevented from pursuing the professional path they desire.
LRAP is a forgivable loan program that helps Boalt graduates working in modestly compensated positions at nonprofit public interest organizations or government agencies after graduation. Our new LRAP will be, in many important respects, the most generous in the nation:
* New Debt Limit: The new LRAP will cover up to $90,000 in law school loan debt and up to $10,000 for bar exam period loans, making the total debt limit up to $100,000. (The current limit is $55,500.)
* New Contribution Point: For graduates with qualifying employment, Boalt Hall will repay 100% of your eligible debt if you earn $58,000 annually or less. (The current contribution point is $40,000.)
* Improved Contribution-Sharing System: The current program has a steep phasing down of LRAP assistance as income rises, and a complete cut off at only $52,000. The new changes will have a slower phasing down of assistance, and could provide LRAP eligibility for graduates with annual incomes as high as $100,000 (depending on your individual law school debt load, debt structure and repayment terms).
There are other details, including eligibility for certain international jobs, and a limited pilot program for private sector, so-called “low-bono” jobs with salaries and work comparable to public interest work.
Some of the resources for this LRAP expansion will come from alumni donations, and I hope that this revenue source will increase as our capital campaign picks up steam. For now, the bulk of the funding will come from current and expected tuition revenues — from the portion of your tuition dollar that the Regents permit us to keep and invest in Boalt’s excellence. In a real sense, therefore, the expansion of LRAP is the result of a partnership of current and former students with each other. Yet another thing about which we can all be proud.
We are working on the official policy description right now. This memorandum is not a contract, and the details matter. Those will be available in coming weeks at www.law.berkeley.edu/students/financial_aid/lrap.html.
Finally, I want to thank the faculty for their support and encouragement in moving forward with these changes; in many respects, the faculty is the guardian of the institution's character across generations. I want to give special thanks, however, to the members of this year’s Financial Aid Committee for their truly Herculean efforts in thinking through the complexities of LRAP and our changed economic environment. The committee members are (with asterisks for the LRAP subcommittee): Professors Ian Haney-Lopez, Steven Sugarman, Erin Murphy, Ken Bamberger, Rob Merges*, Aaron Edlin and Linda Krieger*; staff members Dennis Tominaga, Ed Tom, Laurent Heller* and Viki Ortiz; and students Heather McGhee, Danny Aguilar and Claudia Medina*.
The LRAP news is great! Now I may not have to work at a firm.
I also think this means that it's time to re-think a previous post:
http://boaltalk.blogspot.com/2006/02/lets-lrap-it-up-already.html#comments
More good Boalt news (esp. if you're into corporate or employment law): Eric Talley and Gillian Lester have accepted their offers to stay at Boalt permanently. See http://leiterlawschool.typepad.com.
New Admits: welcome! Sorry I didn't say hello today, but I promise I'll be extra friendly to those of you who actually show up in the fall...
On going straight through:
So you are worried that you'll regret your choice? People regret not taking time off because they are afraid they lost a chance they'll never get back. People regret taking time off because they feel like what they did wasted however many years of their life that is gone forever. So if you are about to do something you think is valuable, you probably won't regret it. Unless you just have your head up your so far up your ass that you think it would be valuable to be a paralegal for a few years & see what firm life is like. Talk about the details with someone you trust. If both of you are convinced that the non-law plan is valuable, it is probably a mistake to pass it up because you are worried that an extra few years as a lawyer might be EVEN more valuable.
The one good reason to take time off even if you don't have any worthwhile plans: you know deep down that you don't really want to be a lawyer. I know that lots of happy, successful Boalties who wandered in without a plan will jump on me for this, but I think it's a bad idea to come to law school if you don't walk through the door knowing of at least one legal career that you can see yourself being happy pursuing. Oh, and please don't try to get this vision by working as a paralegal, or worse, as some glorified copy boy for whatever lawyer will hire you. Have some pride.
What are some nice neighborhoods close to Boalt?
If you're willing to take the bus a little ways, your options open up tremendously. While AC Transit has it quirks, by and large it's OK for regular commuting to class and since all Cal students get a bus pass for unlimited bus rides in the East Bay (paid for by mandatory student fees) it's a good option.
So off the main bus lines that run pretty frequently to Boalt, I'd say the Elmwood and Rockridge neighborhoods down College Ave. on the border of Oakland and Berkeley is pretty good. Easy access to cool restaurants, shops, and boutiques.
The north side of campus is good too. A lot of Boalties live in the Gourmet Ghetto neighborhood (near world-famous Chez Panisse). Pluses are great, great food (with some decently economic options for student budgets). Also some like to live further up the hills, better views and quiet neighborhoods. Though it might be a little less convenient to get to school. (Though you can get great exercise.)
Other good options are in Albany near Solano Ave., Kensington, and near Lake Merritt in Oakland. Though since they are slightly farther, quite a few folks drive from there.
Wow, I should become a real estate broker. Screw this law school crap.
ACTransit is also a convenient (and free) way to get to SF using their Transbay lines. The F drops you off right on Boalt's doorstep.
Are any of the private loans listed on the boalt website especially good or bad? Do you lose sleep over your debt? I'm starting to feel apprehensive.
I don't know if Boalt lists it, but the best bang for your buck is the Nellie Mae Lawloan. If you have good credit, and apply with a co-signer who also has good credit, you get 0 fees and an interest rate of prime - 0.5%. If you find a better deal, I'm all ears, but that's the best I've found.
On going straight through: It has it's advantages and disadvantages.
Disadvantages of going straight through:
- you don't get that experience doing something different (whatever it is) that adds perspective to your life.
- some prior occupations/education can make you more marketable when you look for lawyer jobs later
Advantages of going straight through:
- you don't blow a year or more in some dead-end job (potentially)
- you're still used to an academic setting
- every year you delay, the more they jack up the fees (thank God I didn't delay. I went a couple years ago when Boalt was still a bargain.)
A lot of it depends on outside factors, like the economy. Do you already have a good job? Or are your prospects limited, because you got your BA in something stupid, so now you're stuck working retail?
Also, remember that you can have that non-legal part-time job while you're in law school. I did it, and so did a number of other people - it helps pay the Bay Area's ridiculous rents.
Class Pass Details
Hiya, Armen. When you're assigned to read a full case (with the dissent included) - how much, if at all, do you focus on the dissent?
Depends. (Get used to this word. It is the answer to every legal question you will ever have).
I remember pondering this exact same question as a 1L, and now I realize there is no way I could have gotten the right answer on my own, so I'm going to write an extended comment explaining this reading of cases thing (with particular attention to dissents).
Based on the question it seems that you already know that the dissent isn't the governing law. If as a lawyer the best you have to support your position is something in a dissent you're pretty much fucked. But we're not lawyers (yet) so the rules are a bit different.
First, read the introductory note and/or commercial outline to see where this case fits into the grand scheme of things. For example, if this is "classical contract theory" then the dissent might be more important because the black letter law has changed since the early 20th century. If, however, it's a 2003 SCOTUS opinion then, well, the dissent is probably not important to black letter law.
Second, look for the dialogue. The judges/justices speak to each other in published opinions. What the hell are they saying to each other?
Third, put the 1 and 2 together. After the first two steps you should know whether the dissent (a) is in the book to show that this judge/justice had it right all along or (b) pokes holes at the reasoning/analysis of the majority. Chances are, if the dissent is included, there's something to it.
Going back to the classical K theory example, on an exam, if you are given an issue spotter, then you will not need the dissent in an early opinion to come up with your answer. But if you understand the dissent, then it can help with your own analysis. This is all very abstract so I want to give a concrete example.
OLD CASE
Majority: A is not a K because it lacks B.
Dissent: Even without B, A should be a K.
NEW CASE
Majority: What the old dissent said.
Dissent: What the old majority said.
Exam question: You have D, but it's missing X, Y, and Z. And a lot of people breached D. Can you sue for damages?
Exam answer:
K is valid even without B. This law goes back to the dissent in Old Case. The dissent explained that B is not essential for a bargained for consideration. Although X, Y, and Z are not B, they are also not essential to a bargained for consideration for the same resons discussed by the dissent in Old Case.
Anyway, I'm tired from unpacking, so this might have been the spoiler to Snakes on a Plane for all I know. Just remember, the bottom line is what's important...B not necessary for a valid K because...
To clarify that last sentence. What I meant was, the rule as it is in the present is what is important. Whether that comes from an ancient dissent or modern concurrence (e.g., Justice Jackson's concurrence in Youngstown) makes no difference. Just try to get the rule and the reasons for the rule. If the dissent pokes holes in the modern rule, then understanding those holes may prove useful on an exam...just don't dwell on it.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. In the example above - could you just say "K is valid even without B because of [new case]"?
and
Snakes on a Plane was pretty darned funny.
Well, the modern rule is that K is valid without B. New Case, at 123. But the question asks about D missing X, Y, and Z. You can't just straight apply the rule. [Note that in most exam questions you will just apply the rule to the new facts without this much twists and turns]. So you need to go to the reasoning of why B is not essential to a valid K. New Case tells you nothing because it simply adopts Old Case, (Simpson, J., dissenting). So you can't explain your answer without understanding the dissent. Like if you want to argue that X, Y, and z are essential to a K, then you have to explain how they are different than B. Again, you need to understand the dissent.
BUT, and this is a huge caveat, what I'm describing is a hypo. Just try to figure out why the dissent is there and make a note of it. 1 out of a 1000 exam questions will have some fact pattern where you need to know a dissent to get the question. Just keep that in mind. Whew.
I would put Snakes on a Plane in the same category as Speed 2.
Question: Why is Tatiana so brilliant, witty, and funny?
....because she is talking to herself.
If this 0L were to ask a question, would anyone answer?
Clarification: I meant questions asked here....
(I already know that the rest of the world doesn't give one shit about whether I know the answer to, well, anything.)
To 8/02/2007 4:23 PM: Yes.
Is Boalt a good place to go if you're not really interested in practicing law, but only minorly interested? Specifically, I am referring to someone who is interested in getting involved with social entrepreneurship and business, and who wants to get a "good degree" and some stability before embarking on his own. If not Boalt, what would be a better law school to do this at?
Second, would anyone here choose Boalt over Yale or Stanford?
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