Grades Rankings and Egos Oh My
I continue to despise any sembelance of competition and/or competitive spirit. I don't mean that I hate excellence in your legal coursework...quite the opposite. But given that we are graded on a curve, I can't stand the need for some to feel "validated" with grades. I ask that everyone read my first ever post on De Novo, prior to commenting here.
Also be mindful of the Honor Code and its restrictions on discussing grades.
Also be mindful of the Honor Code and its restrictions on discussing grades.
Labels: 0L/1L Advice, Grades And Other Neurotic Bullshit, Honor Code, Law School
posted by Armen Adzhemyan at 1:17 AM
40 Comments:
anyone heard when ranks will be available?
Dean Ortiz sent out a series of emails recently... July 17 and July 18 specifically, and then referring further questions to Holly Parrish.
To be clear, that email was, I think, only to rising 3Ls. So 2:24, if you're a graduate, who knows when you'll get it. If you're a rising 2L, they don't calculate ranks for your class until after next semester.
I'd add that the Honor Code could use some work. As a document, it's pretty ambiguous:
(D) Other Uses Impermissible. The Dean, Dean of Students, faculty, and students shall not disclose information about class standing provided by the Registrar under this section for any professional purpose other than obtaining a judicial clerkship or academic position. A student who reveals this information for any other professional purpose is in violation of the Honor Code.
So... the only way to violate the Honor Code is if you reveal the rank for a "professional purpose"? That's how I read it. And that's how it should be - the sensible interpretation is that the only people who can't get a student's ranking are employers (other than judges and univiersities, who apparently have enough perceived bargaining power to get their carveout).*
Basically, it can't possibily be an honor code violation to tell my parents about school. And a careful read of the rules I think backs that up.
--
* Do you think Boalt uses class rank in its faculty hiring decisions? And if so... isn't that hilariously hypocritical? Everyone can use ranks for hiring decisions, oh, except the market for attorneys. But judges and academics, discriminate on class standing as much as you like.
i know for a fact boalt uses class ranks in hiring professors. so does every law school. i think this rule of non-disclosure was the result of student pressures. when i mentioned the honor code to one boalt professor, he laughed and called it stupid.
Has boalt sent out letters for amjurs/prossers for this semester?
You might not get a letter about AmJur's or Prossers for another 6-9 months.
So don't hold your breath.
Ask your professor.
Or check your official transcript.
BearFacts doesn't say jack about awards.
Armen - the Honor Code does NOT place "restrictions on discussing grades," as your title post above suggests. That is such utter B.S..
Some sanctimonious, holier-than-thou hang-up about grade discussion motivates comments like those. You falsely expanded the Honor Code's nonsensical prohibition on class-rank disclosure (see Tom Fletcher's post above)to grade disclosure. If you mean to say that the honor code places prohibitions on rank disclosure, you should have said that. The two are VERY, VERY different.
The Honor Code doesn't place prohibitions on anyone from revealing or discussing their own grades anonymously or non-anonymously to anyone. I trust that Boalt students aren't dumb enough to believe the manipulative language above. It's definitely not civil or polite to reveal other folks' grades publicly without their consent. Perhaps it's not civil or polite to even reveal your own grades in social company. There's a taboo, rooted in good sense, that encourages discretion about discussing grades. But violating a taboo is not violating the school's academic rules.
Indeed, you can reveal grades to your employer, your ex-employer, your potential firm-employer, your potential judge-employer, your professor, your mother, your father, your friends, your relatives, your kids, your hair-dresser, your manicurist, your tailor, your pharmacist, your dealer, your bookie, your hooker, your arms-supplier, your therapist, your doctor, your dentist, your masseuse, your green grocer, your gardener, your milkman, your mailman, your congressman, your butcher, your priest, your rabbi, your imam, your mullah, and anyone else who cares to listen to your voice or read your words.
(And if anyone actually receives services from all the professionals listed above, then you've got a very busy and potentially interesting life.)
Whether those people care one way or another about your HH's, H's, and P's or want to have anything to do with you after you've revealed your grades is another matter. Some of them may think you're a dick for talking about grades.
They may be right.
They may be wrong.
You may be a very shallow, competitive nit-wit.
Then again, you might a very intellectually substantive person on the verge of making great contributions to legal thought or the progressive activist movement
-- and you happen to enjoy grade-talk too.
So, even the Boalt Honor Code -- a document whose interpreters try to stretch into silencing all kinds of speech -- is not so audacious and irrational as to place outright "restrictions on discussion of grades." OCIP would grind to a halt if that were the case.
Don't go confusing hackneyed, potentially outdated "taboos" (in some circles) with the "Honor Code." If you want people to adhere to a "taboo" about grade discussion, then go ahead and tell people that you want them to continue abiding by taboos. It's not very hip and exciting to perpetuate taboos, but maybe there's a retro chic to it. Have the courage to embrace taboos! But don't try to aggrandize these taboos into Honor Code provisions.
Hey numbnuts, that's 6:26, look at the time of the post, the fact that I wrote a dozen other permanent posts at the same time, and go fuck yourself.
Afterwards you can write another essay on whether my response is within the honor code.
Armen - Alright. Respeck.
re: AmJur/Prossers -- is this something we can call to ask the Registrar about, or will that just cause them to snicker and scribble "Red Hot" in our permanent record?
Also, Armen, I don't know whether your response is within the honor code, but it certainly does not conform to the rules of the Kindness Club. Why the hostility?
I'm with Armen.
AmJurs are on Bearfacts. At least mine are. Check the "Memoranda" heading, under the "All Grades" tab.
My Am Jur isn't on bearfacts yet. If you really want to know immediately, go to http://www.law.berkeley.edu/students/registrar/transcript.html, follow the instructions, send a letter and $1 to the address given, and you will know within a few days.
As has been noted previously, Bearfacts hasn't updated for AmJurs/Prossers since Fall 2004. If you have one more recent than that and it appears on Bearfacts, consider yourself sporadically lucky.
10:50 PM is right.
Call up the registrar's office and ask. They will openly admit that they do not consistently update BearFacts with awards.
What kind of grade profile cracked the top-10 of the class of 2007? And how many transfers students cracked the top-10 this year?
Just called the Registrar's Office. They do not post awards on Bearfacts. You have to get an official transcript to see award. They cannot disclose over the phone or email and cannot even accept an electronic, phone, or faxed request because it would not include the $1.
This all really sucks if you are on the east coast or on another continent and want your employer to know if you got an AmJur or Prosser before they make a permanent hiring decision. It could literally be the difference between you getting the job at the super-competitive non-profit you really want to work at over the Yale kid and having to work for the a big firm.
Wow...just wow.
Why does a transcript cost $1? I can see them wanting to deter students from making multiple and unnecessary transcript requests, but why not give a couple freebies? Honestly, this is what our tuition and fees should be covering.
Did the registrar happen to mention if they had already sent out letters to notify those who got the awards?
I'll let you call the Registrar's
Office about that one, Anonymous 4:52. Let us know how that one comes out.
Given that in-staters are paying $25,460 and out-of-staters are paying $37,705, you'd think the Registrar could spot us each $1 to get a transcript on credit. They could bill CARS and even hold our diplomas if we don't pay them back. But I suppose we shouldn't expect any kindness or convenience from the spawn of Cruella de Ville and Standing in Line at the DMV.
Hey, Armen, please change the intro text of this thread to reflect the fact that the Honor Code does NOT prohibit discussion of grades.
6:26 PM on 7/23 already pointed this out, and you admitted the mistake. So change it.
Hey, Armen, please don't let red hots like 10:38 AM on 7/28/06 boss you around.
Hey, Armen, please don't rewrite the Honor Code in your image and let posters like 10:42 AM on 7/28/06 enable you to do so.
10:53 wins for the dumbest comment ever.
I have a Jurisprudence Award listed on my official transcript. Is this the AmJur award? The official name doesn't have "American" in it?
yup-- that's it. prosser prizes and jurisprudence awards are the names.
why do people call it amjur then?
do most/all law schools have these awards, or are they boalt-specific?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
jesus christ you are all so goddamned self-absorbed. i'm sad to have to go to law school with you.
12:17, sounds like someone didn't get that AmJur she was hoping for...
Armen, I sprained my ankle today...just thought you should know.
I would really appreciate any feedback from people who have gone through OCIP... what kind of grades will make the process easy/hard/etc.? I know a lot will come down to the interview itself but I'd be interested in hearing if people thought certain grades really helped or hurt? What is the cutoff for the top SF firms??
How should we approximate our class rank? If a firm wants someone in the top 10%, what does that mean in terms of Boalt grades? What do you think firms do to approximate?
"Yeah, I hear that in the old days, you used to get a hornbook or treatise (often valued at $100) in the subject you AmJur'd from the publishing company sponsoring the award."
Doesn't winning an AmJur make you the last person who should need that book?
there was a rumor that amjurs were to be posted on bearfacts this semester. can anybody confirm that from first hand experience?
Yes, at least some of the AmJurs/Prossers are on Bearfacts.
I can confirm that at least some AmJur / Prossers for some first year Mods are available on Bearfacts. Just click on "all grades" and it should be listed under "Memorandum"
Post a Comment
<< Home