Clerkships
UPDATE: I'm moving it up in light of apps going out. Also if people want to post interview offers, I'll be more than happy to add them to the main post here.
Questions and answers regarding clerkships.
Questions and answers regarding clerkships.
Labels: Kevin Smith
posted by Armen Adzhemyan at 3:03 PM
66 Comments:
how many judges are you kids applying to this year? care to correlate that with class rank so i can get a sense of what seems reasonable?
45 judges, mostly all bay area. top 10%. would apply to more if i could.
I read somewhere we are supposed to "finalize" our judges list sometime this week. Does anyone know what this means?
Also, does anyone have a general calendar for when we're supposed to do what? I have my recommenders but I kinda need to sort out everything else.
Approx. 120, mostly in 9th circuit, both district & appellate judges. Top 15%. But I have no idea what constitutes "reasonable" within this crazy f-ed up system. Good luck, everyone.
We're supposed to send our list of judges to recommenders by this Friday, 7/28. By 8/14, submit all recommender info & create judge list on OSCAR. By 8/22, turn in all completed paper applications to clerkship coordinator.
CDO has a calendar hidden in the middle (page 23) of the Judicial Clerkship Guide.
in the bottom half of the class and will be submitting applications to as many judges sitting in "fly-over" districts as possible ...
top 5%. a bit over 100, everywhere under the sun. approximately 75% circuit, 25% district. who the hell knows how this works anyhow? it's not as if boalt is particularly helpful in the process of narrowing a judge list, especially when ranks are made available less than two weeks prior to the deadline for the lists.
oh, and to "finalize lists," once your list is correct in the boalt judicial database-- note that it has some errors in it with regard to oscar judges, check oscar itself to be sure-- download a copy of the mailmerge file to your harddrive so you can mailmerge your oscar judges, though you'll have to edit this list later to eliminate paper judges from it. THEN delete all the oscar judges from your database list so you just have a list of paper applications that require a printed rec letter. again, download a copy of this to your harddrive and then you will have an easy time printing out your mailmerge. go to the clerkship database homepage, and at the bottom it has options about sending a list to a faculty member. send your paper-only list to your recommenders' FSUs. there is more info about this process in the clerkship guide, which is on the clerkship homepage. it apparently all needs to be done by friday. good luck to everybody getting it done!
have people had success asking professors to call judges? is it also a good idea to have lawyers/supervisors call? how are you targeting these calls (generally)?
I don't want to out myself by giving stats but I did go through the process last year (successfully, thankfully). But you should know there is so much more to the application than your rank. Besides the obvious like your resume and writing sample, whether you have published a Note or Comment, I think who your recommenders are and what they say, as well as whether they call, can have an enormous impact on how many interviews you get. Also, any potential connection you have with a particular judge or even a geographic area outside the Bay Area. Then it really comes down to how well you prepare and interview.
Judges complain about getting too many applications and that people don't put enough thought into who they choose, but you don't want to apply to too few. Because you never know who will be into you and what you have to offer.
That said, I've heard having too many interviews really can be a bad thing. But it's hard to know how many is too many. I think Prof. Joseph applied to like 3 judges, but, then, she's a total and complete badass.
Good food for thought, all. I'm applying to at least 100 random district court judges as my grade percentile is not, shall we say, in the single digits.
I'd like to make my apps meaningful to the judges--don't want to waste their time or mine--but damn it's hard to find information that's useful to a potential clerk. Regarding geographical connections to elsewhere, I don't really have any, but I'm trying to play the 'exotic' card--i.e. apply where Boalt students perhaps have perhaps not gone before (N.D.W.V. anyone?).
I've googled some judges as a means of tracking down old clerks, which can lead to something more than the bland desciptions in the Almanac. But for most apps, I won't be able to learn much about the judge at all.
I suppose the benefit of a two-track system is that you have to finalize your 'paper' judge list first, then think about the OSCAR judges.
Sigh. Good luck--you all deserve a great experience.
Couple of questions:
How can one tell if Senior Judge takes clerks?
How can one tell how long a clerkship will be? (I have heard that some judges in the boonies require clerks to stay for 2 years, but I do not know how to figure this out)
Thanks.
FLCIS, https://lawclerks.ao.uscourts.gov/
I don't think you can search by senior status, but that info is usually there as a part of the judge's title.
The term of the clerkship is usually posted there as well.
Gosh, didn't you read the clerkship guide?
Do all clerks have to take a drug test?
What if you come up positive, but have a medical marijuana card, like so many of the smarter kids at school?
7:12, just clerk for someone like Judge Rabinowitz (Alas.) - see Ravin v. State, 537 P.2d 494 (1975) (concluding that "no adequate justification for the state's intrusion into the citizen's right to privacy by its prohibition of possession of marijuana by an adult for personal consumption in the home has been shown").
I don't know if you're serious, but I'm pretty sure most law clerks don't take drug tests. USAO/DOJ's office yes, but not court employees. There is a mandatory FBI background/fingerprint check, with an optional central records and credit check. This is all federal, I'm sure things very state to state. I'm also sure that there's probably some federal judge out there that does make them get drug tests, and then the "test" of defecating on the Constitution.
I will second the comment that the vast majority of judges are not going to require a drug test. You need to be more worried about a prior drug conviction b/c of the mandatory background check.
If you're in a situation where a judge is asking for a drug test, regardless of whether or not you have a medical card, my best advice is to be honest with your judge about what the likely results of the test are going to be, and to not try to cheat the test (though, if you're in a bind, that's totally doable). Frankly, if you end up dealing with a federal judge who wants a drug test prior ot employing you, the medical card probably aint going to do a whole lot of good.
If a judge drug tests their clerks, that's a good sign they are not a good person with whom to spend a year of your life. If nothing else, they probably would also monitor your internet usage so you wouldn't be able to read this blog at work!
2L here - besides Liu and Joseph, who do I need to get to know as a potential clerkship recommendation letter-writer?
truthfully, you're way better off with some of the older profs than having them UNLESS for a very specific reason-- you know them well because you were an RA, you've taken multiple classes with one of them and gotten HH or H each time, etc, etc. unless you actually think that one of the two of them will say-- this is clearly the best student i have-- you would be ill-served, i think, by a letter that is written by someone who writes for more than 30 people applying. better to get a respected but more obscure professor writing about you in glowing terms than one of them writing in generic terms. but that's my .02
6:02 PM, I'm afraid I don't entirely understand your post. You're implying that younger profs (Liu and Joseph) will write letters for more than 30 people applying. Is this true? Why would it be more true of one of the younger profs than an older prof? Wouldn't older, obscure profs be somewhat out of the loop? Liu/Joseph seem like good recommenders because they're "rising stars" who are fairly well connected.
6:02 here. sure, let me try to explain a bit. rising stars are great if you're one too. then they can call a fancy judge and say, this is the best student i have and you should take her. the problem is that every year, joseph teaches what, 30 in civ pro and 75 in admin? and maybe 30-35 people ask her to write for the same rationale you just expressed--that she's a big deal and we all know it?
but the reality is that she isn't going to generate a fancy pants clerkship from those connections for each of those students. maybe 3 or 4 will benefit from her connections-- and i assume, perhaps cynically, that it's the ones who actually have the best relationship with her who will get them. the rest of those schlumps will probably get a nice letter, because she's a nice person, but not the kind of letter that says, "you must take this student."
so if you know you're not one of those top 4 or 5, either by merit of grades or personal connection/relationship, then i would try to get a letter from a known professor- a shelanski, an edlin, whatever-- who can say superlative things about you and not have to qualify them to leave room above you for the other, better qualified applicants they're writing for. because there are profs at boalt who write relatively few letters of rec, but who are known for writing good ones. the key is to get your hands on one of those, so they can be both honest and exuberant. at least that's what i think.
I can understand why Liu is a good person to write because he is politically-connected, chair of the clerkships committee, getting close to tenure and very active with the ACS. What makes Anne Joseph such a big deal? She's only been a professor for what, two years?
and liu's only been a prof for 3 years.... so a year counts as a big difference? just because somebody was around before YOU arrived doesn't mean they've been at boalt for eons.
Supreme Court clerk...read the bio!
Anybody have any perspective on how possible or difficult it is to add judges to your list after the CDO deadline?
I"d say, talk to your professors. But, I haven't tried.
Does anyone know any reason I shouldn't submit my application to every Judge registered on OSCAR?
12:11--do you want to work in the location of every Judge listed on OSCAR? do you want to pay to fly to interview in the location of every Judge listed on OSCAR?
re: the latest email from CDO
1) Looks like Boalt is not following the advice from the Penn State article to include nice info from the school and not to use individually sealed recommender letters
2) CDO staff members are going to put the envelopes into FedEx boxes for each judge? How many people think that's going to go off w/o a hitch?
12:11, also, Oscar applications are not as painless as one might imagine from the fact that its an online system. You still have to upload a separate cover letter for each and laboriously attach all your documents to each application. At least its free.
hey, how do you kids who are getting into town this weekend plan to get your printing done when they are shutting the library computer lab basically straight through until materials for applications are due?
hey, i think i missed that email - what's the story with the print lab?
No, you can still get to the print lab from 9-5 M-F by going in through the back parking lot. Which is of course super helpful for those of us who, I don't know, are working this summer. It would have been all too nice if just once in the past months the library could have been open until 8 or on a weekend for a couple of hours.
If you missed that email you may also have missed the email saying no double-sided copying of writing samples. No wonder they need to charge us $2.00 for each mailing.
Finally, what kind of paper are we supposed to use? Resume quality? Regular?
Am I the only one who finds the clerkship guide incredibly confusing?
Can someone please tell me what the "packets" are that we are supposed to put our materials in? Are they something Boalt provides or do we have to bring our own packets? If we have to bring our own, how do you obtain/make one?
The "packet" is a manilla mailing envelope. Prepare them as you would if you were mailing them to the individual judges yourself - put address and return address labels on them. You put your resume and cover letter (on resume paper) inside, then your transcripts, writing sample cover letter, writing sample(s), and individually sealed letters of rec.
I think CDO is dead wrong about not printing your WSs double-sided. It's what I did, it's what a judge told me to do, and I received over ten interviews, but do what you think is right (keeping in mind that an Indian will cry a single tear for each extra sheet of paper you waste).
If a judge asks for only 2 recommenders, does that mean they'll toss your application is you give them 3? Or just that 2 is the minimum?
Anybody feeling like this hiring plan is screwing them? Looking on the yale blog, cabranes, parker, and straub in 2nd Cir, Edwards in DC, and Bright in 8th are all finished hiring. Unless they hired only graduates-- which I suppose is possible-- other schools are letting their students get rec letters WAY earlier than boalt and apparently not threatening them with an honor code violation for sending materials early. I hope we aren't the year that most everyone opts out of the system and there are very few clerkships left come September 22.
Hey what's the link to the Yale Blog?
Thanks
I'm a 2L and need to understand how the whole post-2L summer firm offer works when one plans to apply for a clerkship. And as long as I'm at it, what's the proper response during OCIP interviews to questions regarding clerkship plans?
I'm not sure what the proper response is, but I did not tell anyone I was planning to apply for a clerkship during OCIP interviews. I'm not sure anyone ever asked.
A firm may hold your offer open while you clerk, and will let you come back after your clerkship, assuming they have space. Some judges will not allow you to have an offer officially accepted while you are clerking because of conflict of interest issues. I've talked to the firm I summered with and if I get a clerkship, I can decline the offer but let them know that I am planning to return in a year, at which point they can repopen the offer.
Most firms value people who have clerked, and unless business changes and they can't accomodate an extra person, I would be suprised if a firm frowned on clerking to the point that they wouldn't let you come back.
Has everyone's recommenders submitted their letters? When should you contact a professor to tell them their secretary hasn't done it yet? Obviously they're written b/c the paper copies were done...
i'm missing two out of 200 for OSCAR. i plan to call the FSU on thursday if they aren't up by wednesday night. YMMV.
200! I feel very sorry for the FSU for your recommenders.
FYI, the blog referred to above is:
http://lawschoolclerkship.blogspot.com/
does anyone know if you can send 2 diff writing samples to the same judge on oscar?
-sarah
is the suspense killing anyone else? i just wish the whole thing were over already.
Sarah: I don't think you can. I think I read that if judges want two, you're supposed to make them into one document, pdf it, and upload that. You could write in your cover letter that your writing sample is two documents one right after the other.
Good luck.
And I wish it were all over with too. Not that it's suspenseful, necessarily, but it'd be nice to know how things will settle out for me next year.
the only judge to whom i applied who wanted 2 writing samples didn't want an undergrad grade sheet. so i uploaded my second sample as an undergrad grade sheet, titled it "writing sample 2" and then attached it to the application. he now has two writing samples.
good luck to everyone getting these finished tonight!
Did anyone else notice that OSCAR has frozen us out early? I was trying to switch a few docs tonight and it informed me I can't get into my applications because the judges already have access. Here's the message:
"This application is already viewable by the judge and may not be changed. You may choose to withdraw it from consideration, but will not be permitted to reapply or resubmit to this clerkship in the future."
Here is the Sept. 5th update on the OSCAR home page:
"Release of OSCAR Applications
September 05, 2006 OSCAR will release law school student applications on September 6th at noon (EST)."
Kind of annoying. Good thing it wasn't a major change!
Is there some legitimate reason you Boalt kids didn't list your last semester grades or class rank based on two full years? Because if not (and I've already seen this on more than one application), I'm assuming straight Ps for your last semester.
9:35, that sounds pretty strange.
A few guesses:
1. Some Boalt kids may have still been uploading their final docs when OSCAR prematurely locked them out last night.
2. Some Boalt kids may have listed the classes they are CURRENTLY enrolled in (which do not have grades yet, obviously).
3. There are lots of other possible screw-ups I can think of that wouldn't be the students' fault (for example, professors haven't listed grades yet, UC administrative problem, etc.). I wouldn't assume anything because it makes an ass of u and me.
By the way, how can you tell if the rank is for three or four semesters?
9:35 am:
Are you a judge? If so, please don't take this blog as representative of all Boalt students!
Only activist judges read this blog. It should be fairly obvious that the post is either a hoax or a clerk. I bet on the latter, but it's anonymous. For all you know it was me (in reality I've still never posted anything without attributing my own name).
I strongly suggest saving your arguments about what the blog does and does not represent for the interview.
Is anyone else as frustrated/annoyed as I am by how many judges are already done hiring? If they all want people who have been out of school for a year, why don't they say so? Or, if they all knew they weren't going to want anyone graduating in '07, why did they accept applications?
Any insights into strategies for tomorrow? Assuming the phone rings, do you pick it up or wait for messages and call right back? Wait til the afternoon, so you know what all your options are before scheduling interviews?
INTERVIEW OFFERS DAY
I want to mark this spot in the comments for ease of reference and I have fixed the link.
armen can you move this thread up and put it behind the OCIP one? thanks!
I assume we are supposed to return calls from judges today?
Callbacks:
Morgan Lewis NY
Cravath NY
I got phone calls starting at 9 AM but they petered out within the hour...I noticed that the more personalized cover letters--like one sentence on why I thought the judge was cool--yielded interviews.
Got three interview offers today with court of appeals judges on the 5th, 8th, and 9th. I had the same experience that all came in around 10 am.
One early morning email yesterday from an east-coast district judge's chambers. Waited on tenterhooks all the rest of the day, but no other bites.
Can people please name the judges? They do it at the Clerkship notification blog, so it can't be completely inappropriate and it would be nice to know what judges are receptive to Boalties.
I promise I'll delete any postings that name judges. There are clerks who read this, and it will not be a surprise as to who posted the judge's name BECAUSE THIS IS A BOALT BLOG. Not some massive national database.
Armen, thanks for looking out for Boalties who are too stupid to know when they are outting themselves to judges. It's incredible how low the correlation between grades and common sense is for a considerable number of the "Skywalkers" at Boalt. I still chuckle about last year's thread where people anonymously posted their (usually very high) class ranks, GPAs and exact distributions of grades. Those people are lucky Dean O. didn't look up who they were and bust them for violating the Honor Code.
Good luck to everyone who has a clerkship interview. Also, I hope those who don't get one this time around don't get discouraged and around think about applying again in the future. It seems the process has a huge element of luck.
Can we get a confirmation whether or not clerks for federal judges are required to pass a drug test prior to employment?
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