Work hard this summer...
There is some indication that the economy is leveling off and may start to cool soon. From what I gather, the last few summers have gotten better and better for summer associates, and I think this summer may be the best yet (what I hear is that people are doing well?). The danger is: the firms may only get the downturn memo after extending a ton of offers for summer employment. That's fine - they just make fewer permanent offers. Based on this line of thinking, it may be wise to work somewhat hard this summer to stand out. It's not that the firms won't make offers, it's just that they won't make an offer to everyone. So don't be the worst. To be safe, be in the top half. Just call it a hunch...
(it may also be wise to ask how these firms weather downturns - do they layoff? do they have recession-proof practice groups? it may also be smart to take some classes in those areas - bankruptcy, etc. - and not be wedded to m&a)
Update:
Allow me to clarify. Law firms, like all businesses, come and go. As Armen pointed out, see room 105, then follow this link. For other historic examples, check out Donovan Leisure (ethics scandal), Finley Humble (name right? anyway, total implosion). More specific to the Bay Area, see the Venture Law Group, and most recently, Coudert Bros. It helps to have some idea of a law firm's overall financial health, and how it's done before. My favorite resource for all things related to this matter is Adam Smith, Esq..
Within a firm, practice areas ebb and flow. This seems particularly true in corporate. When things go bad, M&A disappears. You can diversify your practice portfolio with bankruptcy. Real estate would seem (to me) to also be a volatile practice area, though I'm just guessing on this one. Actually, I suppose people always transact in real estate, they just only develop when times are good, so perhaps it's land use that may suffer. My point is, it may make sense to be a well-rounded practitioner (I say may, because it's not like I even practice yet).
I think litigation is pretty solid day-in, day-out, but I've made an effort to delve into multiple subject areas (patents, securities, & white collar so far) just in case the amount of work changes in one or the other. There are some practice areas I've consciously avoided. Anything too heavy into due diligence sounds incredibly vulnerable to outsourcing one day. Patent prosecution could go that way too, or just be eliminated in some areas if the Court/Congress reinterprets section 101 (i.e., I would not specialize in prosecuting software patents. It sounds much too risky). Simply put, unemployment sucks, so I'll use all the foresight I can to avoid it.
With re: to the first Anonymouse commenter, I agree it's tacky to be a red hot for the sake of showing off or putting others down. But not all competition is "red hot". Working hard and preparing for the world's different possible outcomes makes good sense in my opinion. Besides, don't steamroll the other Boalties you work with - why not put to shame the kids from that other school?
(it may also be wise to ask how these firms weather downturns - do they layoff? do they have recession-proof practice groups? it may also be smart to take some classes in those areas - bankruptcy, etc. - and not be wedded to m&a)
Update:
Allow me to clarify. Law firms, like all businesses, come and go. As Armen pointed out, see room 105, then follow this link. For other historic examples, check out Donovan Leisure (ethics scandal), Finley Humble (name right? anyway, total implosion). More specific to the Bay Area, see the Venture Law Group, and most recently, Coudert Bros. It helps to have some idea of a law firm's overall financial health, and how it's done before. My favorite resource for all things related to this matter is Adam Smith, Esq..
Within a firm, practice areas ebb and flow. This seems particularly true in corporate. When things go bad, M&A disappears. You can diversify your practice portfolio with bankruptcy. Real estate would seem (to me) to also be a volatile practice area, though I'm just guessing on this one. Actually, I suppose people always transact in real estate, they just only develop when times are good, so perhaps it's land use that may suffer. My point is, it may make sense to be a well-rounded practitioner (I say may, because it's not like I even practice yet).
I think litigation is pretty solid day-in, day-out, but I've made an effort to delve into multiple subject areas (patents, securities, & white collar so far) just in case the amount of work changes in one or the other. There are some practice areas I've consciously avoided. Anything too heavy into due diligence sounds incredibly vulnerable to outsourcing one day. Patent prosecution could go that way too, or just be eliminated in some areas if the Court/Congress reinterprets section 101 (i.e., I would not specialize in prosecuting software patents. It sounds much too risky). Simply put, unemployment sucks, so I'll use all the foresight I can to avoid it.
With re: to the first Anonymouse commenter, I agree it's tacky to be a red hot for the sake of showing off or putting others down. But not all competition is "red hot". Working hard and preparing for the world's different possible outcomes makes good sense in my opinion. Besides, don't steamroll the other Boalties you work with - why not put to shame the kids from that other school?
Labels: Legal Culture, OCIP/Employment
posted by Tom Fletcher at 3:01 PM
14 Comments:
Everyone should just ignore this comment. I don't see how this post can serve any purpose other than stressing people out.
Bottom line: the best you can do is try to represent yourself well during the summer both at work and socially. Things will either work out or they won't and then something else will work out. Ignore this red hot talk about being in the "top half" of your summer associate class!
You're an idiot if you're describing Tom as a red hot. And it's not a useless commment, people screw around a lot during the summer. Here's some more specific advice:
-Don't get drunk.
-Don't hit on anyone at the firm.
-Don't try to go around the firm's systems to get ahead.
-Don't badmouth anyone.
-Don't chicken out from firm events.
-Do talk with associates, and partners as appropriate.
-Do take your work product seriously, even though those assigning it to you may not.
I have to respectfully concur and dissent with the post. First I agree with the arguments of the commenter above. This is really encouraging competition for the sake of competition. I don't expect any Boaltie to blow off assignments or to hit on a partner's wife. And I think Tom may be reading the economic tea leaves a bit to apocalyptically (THIS summer there will not be enough offers to go around).
However, Tom's post has one very interesting angle: firm financial health. This isn't a red hot comment by any stretch of the imagination. Some may not know the legacy of Brobeck (see Room 105). Others may not know the percentage of summer associates that typically get an offer from firms. So to that extent, I hope people take Tom's words to heart. The only real way to get those answers is by asking. Following your call backs don't hesitate to e-mail one or two of the associates that you especially felt comfortable with to ask them how the firm fared with the tech bubble collapse, or what they did in the early 90s. See if they'll tell you why some summers have not gotten offers in years past (without revealing any names of course). Bottom line: be wise and consider as many factors as you can.
So to the extent the above commenter finds no merit in Tom's post at all, I have to disagree. But again, don't turn into a competitive jerk, or needlessly compare yourself to your fellow summers.
Errr, I was referring to the first commenter, and the DOs and DON'Ts above are also very accurate and it should be self-evident why.
Here's some even more helpful advice:
FUCK THE BIG FIRMS, AND GET A JOB YOU WILL ACTUALLY ENJOY.
Then working hard and keeping your job won't be a problem, because you'll want to do what you're doing for a living.
Listen to me, people: Get a job at a big firm, and you will hate your life. It isn't worth the money - not by a long shot.
So save yourself the time and trouble, and figure out what it is you really want to do for the rest of you life. Better now than one week into your "new career".
Just curious, 10:43, are you actually someone who has graduated and worked at a big firm and then quit, or someone who is still in school, decided against "BIG FIRMS" and is here to "spread the word" ?
Anonymous 10:43 PM: Posts like these are so annoying because they assume that somehow people who are choosing a firm have no idea what they are getting into. At this point most of the people who have done OCIP know that working for a firm entails long hours shilling for the man. I could care less what someone who can't even stand by his/her words without posting anonymously thinks I should do with my life. Unless you want to pay off my school loans and buy me a house, spare me the sanctimonious "get a job you will actually enjoy" crap. I've heard it enough to know I am thoroughly tired of hearing it. You’ll be happy I actually have money to give when you hit me up to support the BLF fellowship.
I don't take issue with the contents of Tom's post but rather the timing. People are still interviewing now, but next summer is nearly a year away. That's better advice for the 2Ls right before their summer associateships begin.
At this point, this is just going to make people anxious and might encourage some rash decisions on firms/practice areas.
Your choice over 2L summer positions is made almost two years before you start full-time work -- three years if you clerk. I wouldn't put too much mental effort into gaming where the economy cycle will be, and I sure wouldn't stress out about it.
Here's some real advice about how to avoid being on the chopping block if your firm decides it can't hire all of its summer associates: go to a firm with lots of powerful Boalt partners.
Despite what TF seems to think, who gets an offer is often not about merit. Instead, at many firms it is about who has partners looking out for them. Chicago firm has to make some cuts? It won't be the Northwestern or UChicago people. DC? Won't be Georgetown summer associates. NYC? You're probably safe if you go to NYU or Columbia.
TF is hopelessly naive and he can afford to be. The rest of you should be realizing by now that surviving in this profession is often about things other than merit.
Here's some real advice about how to avoid being on the chopping block if your firm decides it can't hire all of its summer associates: go to a firm with lots of powerful Boalt partners.
Despite what TF seems to think, who gets an offer is often not about merit. Instead, at many firms it is about who has partners looking out for them. Chicago firm has to make some cuts? It won't be the Northwestern or UChicago people. DC? Won't be Georgetown summer associates. NYC? You're probably safe if you go to NYU or Columbia.
TF is hopelessly naive and he can afford to be. The rest of you should be realizing by now that surviving in this profession is often about things other than merit.
sorry for the multi-post. Blogger was doing something weird and it seemed it wasn't posting.
"Hopelessly naive"? Ouch. I'm curious if people really did see school-favoritism during the summer. I noticed that summers would get a welcome visit from people who went to their school, but that from there people had to build their relationships with partners. And I definitely did not see partners only befriending people from their schools; instead, they tended to take under their wings the people they liked and the people who did good work. But if folks saw something else, I'd love to know.
In other news, here's my next bet on Corps. link. It's about a parent company who spun off a subsidiary that promptly went under, and now the creditors are trying to get the parent to pay the bonds. It's a mix of both agency/piercing and corporate debt... so it seems to mesh pretty well with the class.
"Anonymous 10:43 PM: Posts like these are so annoying because they assume that somehow people who are choosing a firm have no idea what they are getting into. At this point most of the people who have done OCIP know that working for a firm entails long hours shilling for the man."
Knowing something is not the same as experiencing it.
Just about every friend of mine who went to work for big firms all said the same thing in law school: They said they knew what they were getting into, but they had loans and wanted a house. Guess what: Every one of them is now looking for a way out after 1-2 years.
"I could care less what someone who can't even stand by his/her words without posting anonymously thinks I should do with my life."
My name is Mike Anderson. I posted anonymously b/c I didn't feel like making an account. I'm 100% willing to stand behind my words.
"spare me the sanctimonious "get a job you will actually enjoy"
Sanctimony has nothing to do with it. While there are certainly moral reasons not to work for a big firm, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about not spending 12-14 hours a day hating your work b/c it sucks -- not because you don't like the moral implications, but because the work itself sucks.
"You’ll be happy I actually have money to give when you hit me up to support the BLF fellowship."
How magnanimous of you. Thanks, but I don't need your money.
"Just curious, 10:43, are you actually someone who has graduated and worked at a big firm and then quit, or someone who is still in school, decided against "BIG FIRMS" and is here to "spread the word"?"
I graduated in '04 and clerked for a year. Then I went to work for a very small, very high-quality firm where I love the work I'm doing (100% criminal defense).
Law is a second career for me. I already spent enough years of my life doing things I hated, so I wasn't going to make that mistake again. I went to law school solely to do criminal defense, and that's exactly what I'm doing. And I wouldn't give it up for anything.
I'm probably older and more experienced than most of you, so maybe some of you will listen when I tell you this: Life is too short to spend your days doing something you hate. Other than good health and family, having a job you love doing is the most important thing you can do to make yourself happy. I'd say it's about a thousand times more important than paying off your loans or buying a house.
Of course you don't *have* to work for a big firm to make decent money, so it's not like you *have* to be poor to love your job either. I'm not making quite as much as I would at a big firm, but I do pretty well by most measures.
Nonetheless, if you're determined to make your life miserable, there's nothing I can say to stop you... But I'll bet 3-to-1 that most of you are going to be looking for a way out after one or two years, loans and houses notwithstanding.
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