Simon Says--Get Out!
A commenter in the previous thread has asked for a post on the Boalt plan to transfer student journals from Simon Hall to office space on Bancroft, so as to make room for new faculty. Ask and ye shall receive.
I'm not an expert on this, so I'll leave it up to commenters to provide the pertinent information. Who is being moved? When will it occur? For how long? To where? Who will move into Simon? Then, feel free to debate away--if you point out problems, try to offer solutions!
While I don't want to comment on the merits of the plan, I do want to make one general point about this situation. A recurring discussion on this blog involves the view of many students that the Administration doesn't properly take student views into account when making these types of decisions. I hope, in this case, that the Administration makes an honest effort to include students in the decisionmaking process. Participating in extracurriculars like journals is such a huge part of Boalt--this plan could greatly diminish student involvement in journals, which in turn could effectively alter the entire Boalt experience for many students. Such a change should not be made lightly.
The commenter in the previous thread says that the Boalt admin is implementing the change "quietly." I disagree. I've received several emails about this, BHSA held a widely-advertised meeting, and a student task force has formed. But will any of this have a meaningful effect on the final plan? Or have all the important decisions already been made, before the students became involved? I don't know, but I do know that this issue matters a lot, and I hope that student voices do not fall on deaf ears.
I'm not an expert on this, so I'll leave it up to commenters to provide the pertinent information. Who is being moved? When will it occur? For how long? To where? Who will move into Simon? Then, feel free to debate away--if you point out problems, try to offer solutions!
While I don't want to comment on the merits of the plan, I do want to make one general point about this situation. A recurring discussion on this blog involves the view of many students that the Administration doesn't properly take student views into account when making these types of decisions. I hope, in this case, that the Administration makes an honest effort to include students in the decisionmaking process. Participating in extracurriculars like journals is such a huge part of Boalt--this plan could greatly diminish student involvement in journals, which in turn could effectively alter the entire Boalt experience for many students. Such a change should not be made lightly.
The commenter in the previous thread says that the Boalt admin is implementing the change "quietly." I disagree. I've received several emails about this, BHSA held a widely-advertised meeting, and a student task force has formed. But will any of this have a meaningful effect on the final plan? Or have all the important decisions already been made, before the students became involved? I don't know, but I do know that this issue matters a lot, and I hope that student voices do not fall on deaf ears.
Labels: Classes/Professors, Law School, Rabid Conservatives, Rabid Liberals
posted by Anonymous at 4:05 PM
27 Comments:
The Administration most definitely attempted to accomplish the plan "quietly." None of the student groups on the 5th floor were informed of the situation directly or involved in the decision to boot them out of their space. So far as I know there has still been no direct outreach from the Building Committee to the impacted student orgs. The only reason you received emails about the move is that word got out and, to their credit, BHSA decided to act. But the action BHSA is taking is not part of some process whereby the Administration is reaching out to the students. It is simply a student organized response to a unliateral Administration decision and it remains to be seen whether or not the Administration will take it seriously.
Someone else can explain the details better than I can, but to me this is the point:
The administration has made some very big decisions that it says are final before allowing any significant student input. Specifically, even though there will be a lot more space added, and even though it is not yet clear how that space of the existing space will be used, the administration says that the total amount of space used by student groups cannot increase. It was presented at the meeting you mentioned that the administration says this position is unchangeable. If this is correct, then it is obviously unacceptable.
Student groups who have space and those who want space but don't have it should be a part of this decision. I feel confident that if this is dealt with in a respectful way, that a mutually agreeable solution is possible. If not, then the administration will solve the problem of where to put new faculty by alienating new alumni. As Dean Edley is well aware, all the big plans to improve Boalt long term would be undermined by this tradeoff.
A couple semi-serious remarks and a question, followed by a post-script:
1. Let the new faculty have the Simon Hall elevator. I'd happily take space elsewhere. In five years, when we read how one acting professor had to eat an adjunct while trapped for 37 hours, we'll be glad it wasn't us.
2. No journal I know was happy with the amount of space or conditions in Simon Hall. The BTLJ office is two rooms - for a group of well over 100 members. There is no air conditioning, and its western windows make the place into a greenhouse in the afternoon.
I would seriously like to know: why it would be a higher priority for a student journal to be physically near classrooms and other professors' offices than for a new professor's office?
And in response to a prior thread's comments, we can always use more professors. See this semester's hodgepodge course offerings if you don't believe me.
While in many ways I agree with Tom's comment, I think it is problematic to move all the student orgs out of Simon.
Despite how crowded the BTLJ office is, it was nice to take the elevator and run into faculty from time to time. In general, the faculty seem to hide from students, tucked into an office somewhere that is often near impossible to find.
By changing Simon Hall to an all faculty building, the Administration is reducing the general amount of student-faculty interactions. That's not a positive.
That said, if providing better office space can help Boalt attract and keep high quality faculty, then it may be worth it. But I think there should be some level of debate and input from both students and faculty before making such a change.
And Tom, even if the BTLJ office is small compared to its membership, the view of the bridge is priceless.
Anonymous, you offer wisdom. The view really is amazing.
The loss of student-faculty interaction would be painful, especially because it can be so spontaneous. The only substitute being office hours, which are phenomenal, but very scary. Wearing my chemist hat, there's a massive energy barrier to a successful office hours session - but it is worth the effort.
There is no need to begin the student vs. faculty discussion so soon. Think bigger. In case you guys haven't already noticed there is A LOT of space being occupied by non-students & non-faculty. For example, admissions doesn't need to be in the Boalt building--we already got in, who needs to visit them? Also, what about the finance office? Have you visited them lately? I could go on and on, but I think I made my point. There is plenty of room for students AND faculty if we start taking a closer look at all the administrative functions being performed at Boalt that could be done elsewhere.
No please do go on. What else do you have in mind? Combining the registrar's office with Sproul? Student services? What's that? HP just wanders around Boalt and isn't really stationary. She can do that with an off-campus office. Library you say? New kick-ass CLR HQ I say. MoFo lounge? Not anymore. Say hello to the BTLJ sweat shop.
What the hell is this whining? "OMG...groups are getting kicked out to make room for faculty." No shit! I swear Boalt students are sometimes as foresighted as the California electorate (Vote for Prop. 13 then vote for bonds to help education). One second you guys are bitching and moaning that we don't have enough permanent faculty, then when the Dean pushes to hire top talent, you kick and scream when we try to house said faculty at the law school. Really, give me a break.
1:01 is on the right track. We should figure out which people can be moved out with the least harm to both student and faculty at Boalt.
The administration has a new 9,000 square feet at Telegraph and Bancroft. Student orgs take up 6,350 square feet and Boalt is trying to move some of that square-footage to the new Telegraph space without increasing total student "footprint." Since there is going to be an increase in total square footage and many student orgs don't have space, students should get a chunk of the new space (maybe 2000 square feet).
Solution: move administrators who do not need to be physically near faculty or students, such as fundraising, admissions, financial aide, perhaps CDO (when was the last time you went to CDO?). Also, let's think about moving the clinics down there (they tend to be self-enclosed spaces). Need more space? How about moving retired faculty offices down there.
These moves should easily free up enough space to actually increase the amount of space for student orgs at Boalt, which would be great because student org offices are often vibrant spaces of student interaction.
Another brilliant idea. Why don't we move the law school down to telegraph and have the student orgs keep Boalt Hall? Hell the Dean is never here anyway. Let's move his ass down there too. Retired faculty have done more for Boalt Hall than any journal or student org can even dream about. Let's not go nuts in a frenzy of self-lauditory hallucinations.
Then there's the CDO gem. The one part of the law school that serves EVERY student, rather than the few board members of a journal who can't seem to find any other place to lounge. Damn I'm pissed off about this.
Clinics should definitely not be moved; clinics are part of the curriculum for participants and the offices are utilized far more frequently than most student orgization offices.
Before the any relocation decisions are made, there should be a serious inquiry into which student offices are used and how frequently. I'm a member of a number of student organizations that don't use their office space beyond storing a couple boxes there. I wouldn't object to those offices being moved out of Boalt.
On the CDO. That is probably the most important office to have accessible to students, but it needs to start being more useful. The CDO needs to have the current info about different firms/organizations that students can't easily get elsewhere (e.g., what is the culture and reputation of the office among actual lawyers - not what their website says?). Even more importantly, the CDO staff should spend most of its time gathering contacts from each places who job seekers can talk to. I know it's possible because other schools do it. The difference is that they devote a lot more resources to their versions of the CDO, and have more staff on the job. They also get a lot more loyalty from their alumni as a result. It's a really good investment guys. Really.
Armen,
I usually agree with most of what you say but I really don't understand your hostility to various ideas to keep both student group AND faculty in the Boalt building. Honestly, there are a lot of things that could be moved the Telegraph/Bancroft space that we would never miss or notice. Why would you be against that? Those student spaces are very important and shouldn't be moved if there are other and better alternatives.
I'll take the two examples you brought up: Fin Aid and Admissions. I'm a crazed 1L who doesn't know what's going on. I have to pay $13,000 by August 20 but my loans aren't in. What's better to have around, the Fin Aid office or Boalt Students for Bla Bla Bla?
Now I'm an admitted student who wants to inquire about the school. I visit boalt and look at the directory for an admissions office. What result? Can BSBBB help me with my questions?
The hostility is because the knee-jerk reaction AGAINST having any student groups moved does not take into account the long-term needs of the law school. It's just another variant of NIMBY.
I agree with Armen. These backbone administrative offices are an important part of the school, broadly defined, and would probably not work as well if they are shipped off to another part of campus. On a side note: I doubt it will help their staff morale, etc. Maybe I have a different attitude because I have tended to interact more with administrators in my many higher ed experiences.
I think the lack of space sucks for everyone. I am not happy about the prospect of going to main campus to do my jounral stuff. However, making administrators move because they are "less important" doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
Armen,
Just to clarify, I meant finance, as in the people that do Boalt payroll, etc--not financial aid. (But thanks for misrepresenting my opinions though) Also, did you know there is a retirement office in Boalt? Is it absolutely necessary to have that office in Boalt? Maybe, maybe not. I have to say I really take issue with your assumption that my position is a knee jerk reaction. I think there are a lot of reasonable solutions that should be considered and I was merely pointing out that students shouldn’t immediately turn this discussion into a student vs. faulty conversation. Just because I don’t believe students should blindly accept what the administration has proposed in light of their big plans (which don’t seem to put student priorities high on their list) doesn’t make me a whiner.
"when was the last time you went to CDO?"
Um, every day for the past couple months since I bombed OCIP.
12:00 am, it sounds like CDO hasn't been too helpful, huh?
2:21 AM, midnight here.
While I may not have a job at least I'm not an asshole, like you. Soon, I will have a job. You however will always be a douchebag.
On that note, I find that I like almost everyone at Boalt that I've met. How does this one message board manage to find so many shitheads?
anybody want to talk about the AA cases before the court today? Seems like the court is about to rule that the government is no longer allowed to acknowledge that there are racial injustices in this country any more.
I suggest the Justices take off their robes, put on jackets and earmuffs, and walk East from outside of their court building. And I suggest they sit their in that neighborhood until they are able to see what their ivy league, ivory tower educations have blinded them from seeing.
I agree that something should be done about racial injustices in this country. But fighting racism with racism is no solution.
and I think that 8:12 does a fine job of boiling down the sophisticated logic that the Court will rely on in coming to their wise conclusion. In Bush country: Fair is fair.
You have to admire the chutzpah of 8:12--and his patron saint, Antonin Scalia. Inheriting a legal tradition of conservative originalism that fought tooth-and-nail against Brown v. Board, they now throw up their hands innocently, look around with a "Who, me?" expression, and declare that they've really been opposed to racial classification ALL ALONG and, gosh, it doesn't matter what it's used for. It's all the same! Bad bad bad!
The height of it was Scalia's snide remark today that the government very well couldn't "encourage people to move to Little Italy" -- as if there's no difference between the government trying to make North Beach more hip and the government trying to make our public schools NOT SEGREGATED.
My only question is: Is Scalia stupid, playing dumb, oblivious -- or just evincing that general "I don't give a fuck about black people" attitude that the rest of his conservative brethern can more tactfully hide?
The problem with the whole affirmative action debate is that it is an extremely complicated problem with good arguments on both sides, but, as is demonstrated by the past few posts, both sides think their position is clearly the only right answer and anyone who thinks otherwise is a racist. It's kind of hard to have a worthwhile or meaningful debate in such a scenario.
I don't think you're a racist. I just think you're intellectually dishonest and/or dumb is based on:
1) The history and text of the 14A; and
2) The holding of Brown v. Board; and
3) The line of 14A cases following it; and
4) The definition of "compelling state interest" that can defeat strict scrutiny;
You argue with a straight face that there is no difference between a racial classification used to SEGREGATE in 1954 and one used to INTEGRATE in 2006.
You need to have compelling state interest AND narrow tailoring to defeat strict scrutiny. Furthermore, until Grutter and Gratz, educational benefits were NEVER held to be a compelling state interest. See, Grutter (Thomas, J., dissenting). The text of the 14A is clear, a state can't deny the equal protections of the law on account of race. I'd love to hear how telling a student that they can't go to their neighborhood HS because they are "non-white" and, unfortunately, they live in South Seattle with other "non-whites" is not denying someone the equal protections of the law. Intellecutally dishonest and dumb? Do you have a mirror?
And before you froth at the mouth, I am sympathetic with the school districts, and I think Kozinski's concurrence in Seattle captures my views. But that's not the Supreme Court's jurisprudence.
Even under the Supreme Court's current f-ed up equal protection jurisprudence, these voluntary integration plans should not get strict scrutiny they merely sort students into different schools. They do not classify students!
By the way, I heard Dean Edley and Professor Liu wrote an amicus brief. Anyone got a link?
Vountary? Rosa Parks wanted a seat. The government employee (muni bus driver) looked at her skin and denied her the seat. That wasn't "voluntary."
A white parent wanted her kid to get a school seat. The government employee looked at the kid's skin color and denied the seat. In what sense is that "voluntary"?
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