Not So Trivial Pursuit
Were you just admitted to Boalt? Have you been preparing all your life to go to law school? Well this thread isn't for you then. This is thread is for all the hapless admits who really have no clue what Boalt and law school in general is about. This is where you ask, and Boalt's current students answer. I will periodically move this up, so don't despair.
UPDATE: Moving up in light of Admit Day coming up this Friday.
UPDATE: Moving up in light of Admit Day coming up this Friday.
Labels: 0L/1L Advice, Grades And Other Neurotic Bullshit, Law School, Rankings And Associated Bullshit
posted by Armen Adzhemyan at 9:45 PM
108 Comments:
Is it true what they say?
every word.
any particular reasons NOT to come to Boalt? no one i've talked to seems to have much in the way of negative comments...
the chairs in the lecture halls are uncomfortable.
Smelly trees...and sometimes people.
Rumor has it that the chair in the lecture halls are going to be replaced this summer.
I'm tired of writing so I'm taking a quick break to create a list of things I hate about Boalt (vs. other law schools).
1. The weather. I think this is the single-most determinative factor that Boalties in general do not clerk as much (per capita) as students from other peer schools. Same with going into academia. Even our nerds who enter Boalt Hall with such aspirations are quickly distracted by the gorgeous weather on days like this. BTW, if you spent today indoors, you deserve to be shot.
2. Location. To quote a certain venerable Boalt publication from 1L year, "Studying crim law at Boalt is like studying history in Athens or art in Florence." Relatedly, when bars are within a walking distance, again, studying becomes that much harder. You're not coming to law school to get back on (off?) the wagon are you?
3. People. Look, my idea of law school is to be surrounded by Poli Sci majors who graduated from a liberal arts or Ivy League school on the East Coast and then worked for a prestigious law firm in NY or DC for a couple of years. Oh and posting on autoadmit is a must. Boalt scores a big fat 0 on the last two of those. We do have our fair share of Ivies and liberal artsies, but unfortuantely for me, they didn't work at prestigious firms after graduating. Some went on to get graduate degrees, worked for NGOs, taught high school (or below), worked as reporters, etc. They bring nothing to the table. You might get lucky and run into the occasional prima donna who runs a blog and appears on local NPR affiliates, but true diamonds in the rough are really hard to comeby.
4. Uncle Zeb. What school has an alter ego? Honestly.
5. OCIP (On-Campus Interview Program..."dogs to the layperson"). No one even looks at your resume until you pass the bar. Not. One. Firm.
Adendum to no. 1: "By contrast, if you're in SoCal, you'll suffer from a heat stroke if you venture out for more than 5 minutes. What do most law students do? Find the nearest air conditioned location and study study study. East coasters begin studying around Halloween and don't emerge from their study sesh till May. If for some reason they decide to take a break, they can easily catch up on their reading while waiting for flights to resume at their local airport. In conclusion, the Bay Area is quite simply fatal to anyone who seriously wants to study the law."
Adendum to no. 2: "Speaking of fatal..."
There honestly aren't many reasons not to come to Boalt.
Going to any of the top ranked schools will guarantee you good job prospects, intelligent students, and great faculty. What sets Boalt apart is the law school experience you'll have here. Students are incredibly friendly, laid back, and (for the most part) non-competitive, lots of fun and well attended bar reviews and social functions, being in the Bay Area (and having time to take advantage of living here), our grading system which discourages competitive behavior... I could go on.
Some things off the top of my head that set us apart from some of our peer schools: pass/fail legal writing class, secondary journals are open to anyone, no pre-screening allowed during OCIP (like at UVA),
Negatives: Facilities aren't the best, career services aren't very helpful (though I've heard this complaint about many law schools) and we're especially lacking in our clerkship advice, and - perhaps most troubling - the bathrooms in the library are always stifling and smell of poo.
The main reason why people transferred out of Boalt or aren't enjoying their time here as much as others is because they discover they'd rather be on the east coast (mainly NYC).
and smell of poo.
Yeah but JJ is graduating, so that won't be a problem for the incoming 1Ls. Now incoming associates at a certain firm in NY...that's a different story.
As God is my witness as your former building committee representative, there will be new chairs. In at least one of the big lecture halls, if not all three, there will be new chairs. After three years of speaking up at every possible opportunity, there will be new chairs. I will not get to enjoy them, but there will be new chairs. Go up to the library and try out the models and vote for your favorite, and there will be new chairs. They might not have armrests, but there will be new chairs. They will move up and down, if not back and front, but there will be new chairs. Stop by KVH's office and tell her I wasn't lying when I said "chairs chairs chairs" in response to students' priority for classroom improvements. (The bathroom improvements...live to fight another day.)
Oh yeah, if you're from the East Coast it is entirely possible to move out here and love it and feel totally comfortable. My parents are shoveling snow, and I'm in a place where there are people who don't know what drifting or black ice are. One drawback is that you will realize how bad the produce on the East Coast is.
And there will be new chairs.
How is Boalt's Supreme Court clerkship placement? Does the school aggressively pitch students who want to clerk at the Court?
11:34, I'm glad to see you have your priorities in the right place. I hope for your sake you got into Harvard.
11:34-
When it comes to SCOTUS clerks, it's really Yale, then Harvard/Stanford, then everybody else. Some recently have been as high as 3, some there are none. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_clerks_of_the_Supreme_Court_of_the_United_States. But don't expect to be there unless you have some good connections and/or are some kind of superstar who plans to graduate with almost all HHs and with an editorial position on CLR (and tons of luck).
Actually, I don't think CLR matters a whole lot for clerkships. Most professors at Boalt think it's absurd that CLR selects members w/o concern for grades (or professors' input, for that matter), and that translates into what they tell judges, and as a result, law review service is respected far less coming out of Berkeley than other journals. The latest Berkeley SCOTUS clerk, for instance, Tood Gluth ('05) wasn't on CLR at all.
But regardless, Boalt is not going to very helpful for top clerkships. It's just never been the school's priority, and that shows no evidence of changing under Edley, either. Ask a friend at Stanford about their "book," for instance, or what Chicago does for 1Ls with good grades, and then understand that at Boalt we have lunchtime panels with Goodwin Liu. (Not that they're not appreciated, mind you! It's just that that's all we have.)
Boalt should try harder to place its students in SCOTUS clerkships.
This is probably the dumbest comment I've ever read on this blog. Any other suggestions? There's a box in the Registrar's office. They're just achin' to hear from you. Next thing I know, you're going to suggest that we have more clinical programs, more student orgs space, and cheaper prices at Zeb. Did I leave anything off the 'Duh no shit' list?
Sorry I'm cranky.
What's surprising is that DE has given this zero attention, as far as I can see. If he's determine to make the school more "elite," you'd think landing grads on the 9C, DC C, and SCOTUS would be a component. Granted, they don't factor into the US News ranking. But they seem to factor into anything else. Top appellate and S. Ct. spots gain the school notoriety, lead to placement of grads in top government and academia positions, and probably do at least a little bit for recruiting, as this thread indicates. They raise to profile of the school for the benefit of every graduate. You'd think for something that's such a (comparably) easy win-win, they'd do a book and lean on faculty or something. The cost-benefit is ridiculously in favor of action. Which is probably why every other top-10 school does more, as far as I can tell.
DS just doesn't agree with most commenters that Boalt has few downsides. He thinks there are some big ones.
1) The city of Berkeley. Granted the Bay Area is amazing. But Berkeley itself isn't that great a place. It's super expensive when compared with other top public law school locals. It is not the safest place to be. It's dirty. You get accosted at every major intersection for some spare change. Good bars are few and far between. There are no late-night eateries (top dog excepted).
2) The student body. Okay, the students at Boalt aren't that competitive. But, DS still hasn't found the atmosphere as open as undergrad. It's almost exactly like high school. Everyone is kind of going for the same jobs after graduation. Everyone kind of takes the same classes. For DS, the only tollerable part of high school was after school sports, and, the two semesters worth of Steamer softball not withstanding, Boalt's student body lacks a great deal of athleticism. And, while the majority of students DS has met are quite friendly (he finds it hard to believe this wouldn't be true at most top schools), there are certainly a good number of dicks here, students concerned only with their rise to the top and how you can help them achieve it.
3) The building itself is terrible. True, they are renovating it, and it is ten times better now, than when we entered in the Fall of '04. But it's still terrible. Stairs are out of place. After 5pm, a major hallway is shutdown, making it difficult going from the library to any classroom. Professors' offices are located in all corners of every building. Bathrooms are terrible. The lockers are terrible.
4) Last but not least, the administration. This goes all the way around from career services to student services to the general courses offered at Boalt (DS would like to add that although many other students would add the registrar's office to this list, he won't. They have always been very helpful to him on his visits). There is a left-leaning slant to everything offered, and even though DS leans the same way, he still finds it annoying. You could argue that's law school. Or, what do you expect going to Berkeley? Or, the majority of the students like what classes are offered so tough luck for DS. All valid retorts.
DS's point is, for those prospective and admitted students, don't think Boalt is all happy. It has many problems. Maybe other schools have the same problems. Maybe other schools have worse problems. But not all Boalt students are happy here. Just be aware of that.
As an admit, I have to say, DS, that your negatives don't seem that bad. Maybe it's simply the magnitude that I don't comprehend.
Problems be damned, I'll see y'all in the fall.
To address some of DS's points...
1) This is a matter of opinion. Yes, Berkeley is a bit rough around the edges, but it's a really cool place. We've got some great eateries and restaurants (Cesar, Chez Panisse, Pizzaiola, Kirala Cheeseboard to name a few), too many corner coffee shops and cafes to count, food co-ops and gourmet shops, a good bus system for those without cars, a convenient BART stop, and a beautiful campus. Many of the bars are microbreweries which is great for us beer lovers. If you want something a bit more trendy or upscale, go into San Francisco which is a short (albeit annoying) drive, BART ride, or cab ride away.
And while housing is probably more expensive than where most other peer schools are located, good food and coffee can be found for quite cheap, the bus is free for students, and alcohol is quite cheap.
2) DS's complaints about the student body are applicable to all law schools. At every law school nearly everyone will be "kind of going for the same jobs after graduation," will "kind of take[] the same classes," and there will always be "a good number of dicks here, students concerned only with their rise to the top and how you can help them achieve it."
3) True, our building isn't the best. But it's really a minor complaint. Who cares that much about having plush seats in the lecture halls or pristine bathrooms? We have the important things like a good library and reference librarians and a good computer lab. Plus, we have a nice cafe with seating outside, the ability to have kegs in the courtyard year-round, fairly reliable wifi (not true at all schools from what I hear), and ongoing improvements.
4) Valid point again, but I have the feeling most law schools complain about their administrations.
11:02 is exactly right. DS can't complain about anything more substantial -- like lousy professors (only one and he was just a visiting prof) or job prospects -- because those things don't exist at Boalt. But, he would like to add, that none of the things he mentioned were present at his undergrad. Maybe that's the difference of having a class of 3000 vs. 300. In undergrad, you can stay away from those things/people you don't like, in law school, you can't.
And, although DS isn't a fan of Berkeley, as he lives in the city now, he misses the good cheap eats (Cesar is his favorite restaurant), and will greatly miss his weekly trips to berkeley bowl once he has no reason to come into berkeley anymore this summer.
I'd agree w/ DS, to a limited degree, about Berkeley being a not-so-safe place. I know people who have been mugged, burglarized, and had their identity stolen in the past two years.
That said, as a transfer from a school that was located out in suburbia, I'll take Berkeley over that place any day. Petty crime notwithstanding, learning about the law in a leafy suburb smacks of the ivory tower in a way Berkeley just can't - because the homeless folks, and the lower income folks, and the "townies" are all over the place, even in Boalt's library. I value that grounding in my education.
The building is rotten.
Some of the professors are rather, well, academic, and thus are less interested in teaching than in writing more law review articles so they can get tenured. I find this more pronounced at Boalt than at my old school. That said, I assume this is a common phenomenon among top 10 schools. AND the simple way to avoid dealing with professors like that is to (a) read course evaluations so you know whom to avoid, and/or (b) do clinical work or externships, which put you in the company of - aaaah - practitioners.
Finally, as to DS' concerns/kavetches about the student body, I can't tell you how much better the atmosphere is here than at my old school. The pressure is eased when you attend a really good school...so many more doors are open to you than at other schools. It's a blessing, indeed, to be here.
I've been telling all of my friends and family to enjoy the time they have left with me before August because they won't see or hear from me for nine months. Am I being overly cautious and paranoid?! Will I still have a life OUTSIDE of law school? I have a lot of friends. I would like to keep them.
Cesar a cheap eat? What planet do you come from?
7:27 p.m. - you won't have much of a life. you'll try to keep some semblance of your former life going but you'll be busy as hell trying to do inordinate amounts of reading and absorbed in the little sphere that is law school. and meanwhile, you'll make *new* friends at law school. so, as is true in life, things will change. but not necessarily for the worse. i definitely recommend having a heart to heart with friends and family beforehand so they know to have reasonable expectations of your availability.
WTF? Ignore everything 9:50 said except for the "you'll make new friends" part. Am I alone on this? I mean yeah I don't interact with friends from college as much, but that's because I'm up north and they're down south. Same with family. The only measurable difference is that I went to the movies a lot more in undergrad, but that's because my law school friends aren't lame and instead we go drinking. And when we do go to the movies, we roll by the dozen to see Borat.
7:27, it depends on the type of person you are. it's hard for me to give you a balanced perspective because i always do my reading (i'm a 1L, what can i say), but plenty of people here don't (or do it but don't do much more than skim if they lack the time).
personally, i am so ready for this year to be over.
however, that being said, i promise you will still talk to your friends and family if you want to. you will have a life, just not as good a one as you have now.
9:50 here. Come on. I consider myself someone w/ a healthy law school-life balance, and as a 3L I'm fucking off w/ the best of them. But 1L year? WTF? Armen, are you denying that you read? That you were overwhelmed by the amount you were asked to do? Come on.....
Boalt makes it easier on people b/c you cannot fail in your first semester, unless you write the wrong exam (I've heard lore about someone writing a contracts answer during a torts exam...). So you *can* take it easy, I suppose, and join Armen at Henry's. But the peer pressure to march off to the library is strong indeed. And hell, with the amt. we're paying to go here, perhaps we should take the curriculum seriously? Just a thought.
To quote Joe Pesci, "Everything this guy just said is bull shit. Thank you." I mean I'm not going to deny that there are PLENTY of people who feel like you. I'm just saying I wasn't one of those...and I know PLENTY of people who weren't also.
First, I read everything 1L year and I refused to use a commercial outline. Second, I went to almost every bar review, and during second semester played on an IM softball team. We had our fair share of other things to do.
Third, the only EC activity during 1L year was BJIL for me. Some people go nuts, I didn't. Fourth, if you see me in the library, come ask me if I'm ok. There's probably some incredibly, hard-pressing reason for me to study there. But by and large, I didn't study at the library.
Fifth, I always gave myself one day off during the week. In the fall semester this was Saturdays (to allow college football viewing), and in the spring it tended to be Fridays (take advantage of the gorgeous weather). Sixth, I didn't outline from day 1. I quickly realized that while Law School Confidential is a useful introduction into the "nuts and bolts" of law school, it's recommendations are not sacrosanct. I don't use 8 different highlighters (one will suffice, often it's none), I'm not cutthroat about learning everything there is to learn, and well, I tend to do better when I'm under a little bit of stress (Yerkes-Dodson law).
And lastly, my personality is such that I tend to NOT do something just because others are doing it. When I see the current crop of 1Ls smacking their foreheads while reading in Zeb, deep down, I smile. I made it through law school without dawning your attire.
One thing I will admit though, the first month of law school is scary. I've written about this before, and I'll try to find it. But it's like being thrown into a foreign country and your tour book is written in the form of a law school text. Good luck finding the bano!!!
Hey, 3/19/2007 1:23 AM,
to the extent that professors pave the way to clerkships, which I think they in large part do, Dean Edley is doing an incredible amount of work to get students clerkships.
Is it hard to get into "good" classes, especially 2nd semester of IL.
How often do you have early morning classes?
11:42PM,
Great, I will stop by DE's office in the fall and he can make some phonecalls on my behalf. Glad to know.
my one advice for the 0L - the first semester of 1L does really "build." The first few weeks, I thought, "wow, this isnt so bad - what the heck are people talking about." By the end of the semester, I understood.
Agreed with Armen, though, that there is no reason you can't take one full weekend day off.
To the 0Ls:
Some people will tell you law school sucks and it's hard and your life is over. Others will tell you it's easy and they have a great social life. I am the latter.
The way you can tell what you'll think of it? Think about what you did in undergrad (whether that's this year or 10 years ago). If you studied a lot, then yes, you'll likely do a lot of studying at law school. If you read slowly, it might take more time. But the idea that your life will change and become horrible is ridiculous. It's something that law students tell others to make people feel sorry for them/make non-law school people feel inferior. But it's bullshit.
Law school is what it is. But if you're going to go, there's only one place to do it (assuming Ed Tom gave you the thumbs up). Welcome!
To 7:55 --
Your first semester classes are pre-set. Your second semester 1L year, you take two electives (at least, that's the current policy). There is a lottery to get into the electives, and there probably will be some scheduling constraints (for example, a bunch of 1Ls this year couldn't take Civ Pro II because of the way scheduling works out). There are tons of electives though, and you will most likely get only those that you rank (at least, I've never heard of anyone getting two electives they didn't rank in the bidding system). I actually got my first two choices, but I can't say for sure that happens to everyone.
There are some early morning classes, depending on how you define early. The earliest I think is 8 a.m. It's unlikely you'll be scheduled to be in class at 8 a.m. every day the first semester. But there were some who had 9 a.m. class every day except Friday last Fall. Really, though, 9 isn't that early...especially if you've worked before.
NYC, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Durham all have equal or greater crime than Berkeley. Charlottesville comes close. I didn't go too far down the list, but you can bet DC and LA aren't a picnic. This message brought to you by me being tired of people complaining about crime in Berkeley.
Now, you can make an argument that Berkeley lacks certain amenities to make up for this crime (I would disagree), but that doesn't change the objective fact that the city is much safer than people let on.
DS has no crime statistics and isn't going to look up any at this hour. He simply responds to 12:30 with the following.
Although Berkeley might not have bad crime, Oakland does. And many students are forced to live in cheaper Oakland rather than expensive Berkeley (the border isn't that far away) and commute to Boalt.
You say Charlottesville comes close. Any city will have it's crime. What's important is whether that crime is located next to the law school. Chicago's Hyde park is much worse than downtown where Northwestern is. Columbia's neighborhood in NYC is much worse than NYU. And while Charlottesville might come close to berkeley, I bet UVA's law school, tucked away on a far side of campus next to the b-school, is a much safer area than Boalt. And I don't know where Michigan's law school is, but you never even mentioned Ann Arbor, so DS assumes it's pretty safe.
Honestly, we're not talking about USC here, in the middle of South Central. If a little bit of "urban living" is going to frighten you away from Boalt, please, stay away -- you're not the type we want here.
The only decent water fountain at Boalt is right outside of Booth Auditorium.
This is the truth. Forsake thee not.
I disagree strongly about the water fountain. I really like the one in the hallway near the bookstore too.
Has anyone deferred for a year? How hard is it to get a deferral?
I actually deferred last year and will be coming in this fall. I sent a n email to Dean Tom telling him my circumstances, and he got back to me pretty quickly. They should have information on deferrals on the website.
1:46, from what I understand, you better have a pretty good reason to defer. But, as long as you do, most schools won't mind a deferral at all, despite the dire words of warning on most school's websites. They've admitted you once, they'll do it again.
For example, rumor has it a 3L last year deferred three times. His reason: he was a professional triathlete still at the top of his sport.
I deferred. It wasn't very hard. I just had to send a letter saying why (lame work reasons) and Ed Tom wrote me back that day to say it was okay.
Not too difficult, especially considering how hard the website made it out to be.
Here's one:
What is Critical Legal Studies?
I don't get it.
As for living in Oakland:
If you don't want to live in Berkeley, live out in Contra Costa (Orinda [hard to find apartments], Lafayette, Walnut Creek.) You can either take BART (Hour commute - compare to 1 hr bus ride from OAK) or if you have a car it is a 20 minute drive from Lafayette. It is as cheap as Oakland, cheaper if you get a roommate, and you can walk outside at night without getting shot.
I commute from Lafayette every day, and I really fail to understand why more Boalties don't live out here. Beats the SF commute thats for sure.
Cuz it's lafayette
In my opinion, if you want to defer, it is better to put your reasons in writing - in a formal email or letter - than to talk to Dean Tom over the phone.
Also, please remember that Boalt is an interested party in your deferral. In your letter, explain how your year doing X will make you a better contributor to the intellectual, political, or social atmosphere at Boalt Hall.
hey, armen, you should kick this thread up to the top since admit day is getting close. i'm sure the 0Ls have more questions.
Re: Crime and Oakland. I have lived in North Oakland my entire time at Boalt and these neighborhoods, which stretch from Temescal to Emeryville, are for the most part decent and surprisingly affordable places to live. True, they might not be for everyone, but they can be quite safe (indeed in my opinion a great deal safer than walking down Telegraph). In addition, the commute to Boalt is quite fast, and I have found the quality of housing to be much higher (on average) than right on top of campus where, frankly, the demand for the location depresses the need for landlords to conduct say - carpet cleaning, remodeling, or (my favorite) pest extermination. My point is simply that people, especially people who hope to keep their living costs at Boalt within reason, should not fear to look carefully at places in Oakland and decide for themselves whether a particular neighborhood within Oakland feels safe and works for them.
Apologies if this is not the appropriate thread to air this grievance in, but can we address the fact that Boalt will not be calculating or disclosing class rank until after spring grades are out this year? It is my understanding that in previous years rankings were calculated after 3 semester.
This is going to make it more difficult to start compiling judge lists. It's also going to make it difficult to solicit informed advice (and letters of rec) from professors this semester, which is when CDO recommends talking to profs. And, it will make it virtually impossible to apply to judges who accept applications prior to early summer (which there are a few of).
Definitely not the appropriate thread. Feel free to start a gripe on the permanent clerkship thread. I'll just warn you that the griping is perennial.
a note to incoming students. this blog is not fully representative of the Boalt community. It is a slice of the community. But a slice. Come visit.
I'm really fucking sick and tired of whoever keeps posting that god damn comment on every thread. Get over yourself. The blog is more representative of Boalt than anything else (short of interacting with every student). Guess what, Admit Day doesn't bring out every student. Neither does orientation. Bar review? Yeah you guessed it, the nerds stay at home. So, pretty please, with sugar on top, shut the fuck up.
Armen, you take this blog way too seriously. You also take it too personally. Think, for a moment, about the blogs that you read and admire. Do the owners of those blogs use foul language, attack people who leave comments and tell them to "shut the fuck up," and take the comments that people leave so personally?
I'm surprised T-Fletch, Issac, Disco Stu and the other bloggers are still a part of this blog. Their posts - while not always as relevant to student life as Armen's - at least maintain a tone of professionalism and civility.
Hey guess what? People use foul language at Boalt too. Dickhead.
Why, you ask? Because Armen lacks the virtues I find annoying and possesses all the vices that amuse me.
I think Armen is incredibly patient on this blog. He has a much thicker skin than I do. And usually he's just being sarcastic anyway.
Let's not kid ourselves, we're all nerds (as if only the "cool kids" go to bar review - please). but if you're an admit and looking for the least pretentious nerds you can find, then Boalt is the place for you.
New commenter here. This blog is definitely not representative of Boalt as a whole. So, Armen, it is not just one commenter. Don't believe me? Look how many people had to log on to the commencement slime-fest to defend our class president and commencement speaker. "Slice" is a good description of the regulars on this blog.
Okay, before Armen gets to calling people dickheads...
Anyone who feels the need to say this blog is only a "slice" of Boalt either doesn't read it often, or has a very (negatively) selective memory. About 98% of the posts are totally positive, and generally do nothing more than 1) discuss briefly a legal issue; 2) point out an issue at Boalt that students are already discussing; or 3) provide unnecessary details of Armen's life. Pretty innocuous stuff, and nearly all of it is "positive" in some way or another.
As far as the comments, those are a lot more variable. But again, about 95% of the stuff is just really basic, innocuous stuff. And for every discussion like the commencement thread, there are about twenty like the EPA v. Mass thread (which had a great debate in the comments) or Isaac's Sunday Literary-isms (which no one responds to). There have been hundreds upon hundreds of posts on this blog in the past two years, and I can count with my two hands the number that have inspired any negative discussion in the comments. And even when it does get negative, the fact is that those being negative are just as much a part of this school as anyone else (and they are usually less of a minority than you think). Besides, the threads that have gotten heated have generally involved issues here at Boalt, and I'll take heated discussion over apathy any day.
So seriously, stop with the patronizing bullshit about this blog not being "representative." (I assume the corollary of this, Mr./Ms. Anonymous, is that YOU are representative of Boalt, right? That YOU know what a real Boalt student is?). It's just a blog, and people can take as much or as little as they want from it. You don't need to trot in on your high horse to warn 0Ls about the dangers of reading N&B. If they're reading this, they already know to take things on these here Internets with a grain of salt, and that there's all types of people here at Boalt and at any law school.
Okay, now Armen can go ahead and call you a dickhead...
It's true. There is a segment of thin-skinned, ultra-far-left, holier-than-thou, angry-but-righteous, usually shrill, often unintentionally humorous, whatever-I-think-is-in-the-Constitution-is-and-you're-a-racist-if-you-don't-agree commenters who pop up here from time to time to complain about something.
This blog occasionally entertains their conspiracy theories. The rest of the school just laughs at them.
So, no, to the extent they take up comment space, they're not very representative of Boalt.
Max Power is certainly right that most of the stuff on this blog is pretty bland. But every now and then (and quite often lately) there are contentious things on the blog that wind up being pretty nasty. The commenter who provoked the last few responses may not have meant to say s/he is more representative than Armen or anyone else. Instead s/he may have merely meant to point out it is certainly quite silly for Armen to compare reading his blog to meeting hundreds of Boalt students at the student activities fair on Friday. Of course, the admitted students should already know this; they got into Boalt after all!
On the general theme of the "dickheads" who point out this blog is not representative of Boalt, I think they are right on three counts, which I will try to put in a civil manner.
First, people at Boalt are generally quite nice to each other. No one at Boalt would have said the horrible things about our Class President to him in person or in the presence of a random group of other Boalt students.
Second, most Boalt students do lean a good deal to the left of this blog. This fact seems to make people like 5:20 act out in the comments section on this blog, which is unfortunate.
Third, and this will likely be more conentious given the readership of this blog, many Boalt students -- even the conservative ones -- seem to think the tone of this blog is a bit embarrassing. I think it is safe to say most Boalties feel it is lame to flame your 3L Class President, your commencement speaker, your liberal classmates and people your school is trying to hire in a public forum on the Internet. So is calling people "dickheads" and accusing them of "douchebaggery." And these last two sentences only refer to things that have happened in the last week on this blog!
I hope this helps to clarify what seem to be some of the main concerns a wide swath of Boalt students -- or at least the ones who are regular readers -- have about Boalt being represented by this blog. Now you guys can flame away at me.
Just in case 6:41 didn't make things absolutely clear: this blog has disproportionate representation from members of the Federalist Society.
Members of the Federalist Society are not representative of the Boalt community as a whole. This is not a controversial statement.
Armen's comments above are not representative of his real personality. As with all blogs, things are much more heated in cyberspace than in real life. Whatever your politics, you will be welcome at Boalt.
6:41 unintentionally highlights a facet of Boalt that incoming students should be aware of: the politicization of the campus and the radical element among some in the student body.
His statement that most Boalties "lean a good deal to the left of this blog" displays just how extremist and fanatical is the definition of "left" for many Boalties.
To the best I can ascertain, every contributor to this blog voted for a Democratic candidate in the last major elections, many worked on Democratic campaigns, interned at liberal interest groups, contributed to liberal causes, led leftist and Democratic student groups in college, and continue their progressive political participation at Boalt.
But because this blog does not always echo the teachings of Dennis Kucinch, it is tagged as *conservative.* Go figure. That should give you a good idea of just how straight-out-of ANSWER, Daily Kos, and Pacifica Radio some at Boalt approach things.
Take that for what it's worth. It's not necessarily a bad thing. I happen to be a big-fan of ideological diversity (well, from far-left to moderate-right anyway -- past that is where I stop listening to either side). But many of the Kucinich/Nader folks are not, and so they attempt to shut down discussion, polarize the community, charge racism and sexism and white privilege at the drop of the hat as a defense mechanism when their own ideas are challenged, accuse their fellow students of elitism and privilege, belittle folks who work for mainstream organizations (including any law firms), monopolize class discussion in the direction of critical legal and socialist theories, demand greater recognition of and respect for "social justice" projects (as they define it), launch campaigns when their demands are not met, harangue people who have different ideological leanings, and try to shut-down *unapproved* ideas and speech (as when they hysterically target this blog for some or another *offensive* comment.)
I don't think its the majority of Boalt student, by any means. (And I'd rather have them than the *genuine* conservatives at Stanford or Harvard Law, who I hear are far, far worse.) But it's something to think about.
This comment has been removed by the author.
7:07 highlights another thing incoming Boalt students should be aware of. There are certain conservative elements of the student body who have elevated whining and complaints of (imagined) discrimination and (supposed) victimization to a fine art. They rail against "leftist" students with such convincing fervor that one feels sorry for them. Almost.
If you're the kind of person who displays moral rectitude by implying one's fellow students are communists (as a towering specimen of Boalt manhood so bravely did recently)you'll feel right at home among them. If you're not, resign yourself to tolerating some manly, Christian, anglo-saxon whining for three years.
Nicely put 6:41.
7:06,
What do you mean when you say: "this blog has disproportionate representation from members of the Federalist Society." Really? Is 1 person a lot? And does membership in the Federalist Society (which at Boalt really just debates stuff, and doesn't even identify with the national org much) determine all the viewpoints of that person?
It amazes me that you're scrambling to show that Boalt isn't as conservative as this blog supposedly makes it look. I would think you would want to tell 0Ls that there is actually a lot of intellectual diversity here, because Boalt's rep isn't great in that department.
Maybe it's true that having 1 or 2 "conservatives" actually speaking their mind does make this blog more conservative than the general Boalt population. But as someone who leans pretty far left, I appreciate that they're willing to do it on here, because I don't hear it enough in class. Last I checked being liberal has more to do with being tolerant of others than it does with any particular viewpoint on an issue--many of the supposedly "liberal" commenters on here would do well to remember that.
7:07, your penultimate paragraph makes me suspect you don't even go to Boalt. You may not even read this blog regularly. (Didn't you see two of the regular bloggers denying global warming earlier this week? That is a conservate-to-far conservative position, so is voting for Prop 90.) Either way, your post makes the third point from earlier very well. You know, the point about the "tone" of this blog often being offensive and unrepresentative of Boalt in general.
I hope everyone reads 7:38 comments *very* carefully.
Note first the accusation of "offensive" speech--precisely as an earlier commenter noted the far-left is apt to do when someone disagrees with them.
Note also the equation of "denying global warming" = "arguing Mass v. EPA" was incorrect as a matter of standing and statutory interpretation.
That's pretty much says all you need to know about the intellectual honesty of some extremists.
Further note to 0Ls: If you misrepresent a case or argument as badly as 7:38 misrepresents the earlier post, you'll be disbarred.
How are job prospects for Boalt students?
- if I want a job at a firm?
- if I want to become a professor?
- if I want to work at ACLU or one of the big nonprofits?
Great
OK
Unbeatable
7:49, FYI:
Tom Fletcher said ...
* * *
Anon 2:04 though, you are truly after my heart. I followed your Australian link. It's very interesting, in that it lists all "principal" and "secondary" pollutants... and does not mention carbon dioxide. As for "CO2 is having a dangerous effect by increasing in concentration to a level far above what natural processes would dictate." It has increased quickly since 1850. But it is not beyond the normal range of CO2 over the history of the earth.
This last point is a central one I think we need to face with respect to cliamte change. We have developed our society in the current geological moment. But the earth is always changing. Do we do everything in our power to freeze conditions as they are? When the next ice age comes, do we pump more CO2 into the sky to warm the planet back up?
When faced with climate change, we have to ask a fundamental question: do we try to control the planet and prevent climate change, or do we adapt to it? We've done the latter for the course of human history; only now are we contemplating the former.
When it comes right down to it, I think this is the most interesting policy issue climate change presents. Do we take control of the earth to make it in our image? Or do we shift with its rhythms?
[for what it's worth, my answer is: which one is cheaper? If it's cheaper to adapt, I say adapt. If it's cheaper to go solar, nuclear, etc., then I say go to those.]
4/08/2007 8:00 PM
Tom Fletcher said...
Well, 1:12, I assure you, I do have a scientific background, and two quarters of coursework in atmospheric chemistry & climatology. I agree completely that carbon dioxide traps heat with its amazing double bonds.
To Anon 7:55 re: ACLU or one of the big non-profits. Yes, your prospects coming out of Boalt will be as good as they would be coming out of any law school, probably, especially if you want to work at a California-based organization. However, you should be aware that these are probably among the hardest jobs to get. ACLU, NAACP, EFF, and the like are very competitive. They do hire Boalties, but you will have to do a lot to make yourself attractive to them. And unlike large law firms, they are not just looking for smart people they can mold in their own image and extract value from--they really expect you to have interest and expertise in the work they do.
8:10
Yes, it was a real act of moral courage to admit covalent double bond formation is exothermic. Almost on par with enlisting to go fight in Iraq.
Thanks for reminding us of that inspiring show of valor and intellectual firepower.
To echo what Isaac said and somewhat contradict 7:56 PM, I think Yale has a leg up on the competition.
In re the job prospects question, 7:56 response is right, but I want to add to that if for no other reason than to move past one troll who doesn't even realize I have my name attached to my comments.
Firms. The last two years I was taken to task for saying "Oh everyone gets a firm job if they want one" and things along those lines. Basically since 3L OCIP, I've been thinking about this quite a bit.
The negatives: Don't expect Career Services to hold your hand. In fact, don't expect them to look at you, answer any question, or even brake if they see you crossing the street. I think TG has been doing a terrific job there, but they just don't have the staff to call you in for a 30 minute chat about your goals, desires, wiches, etc. If you have a question, there will be some book in their library to "answer" your question. So during the summer of your 1L year, be prepared to do a lot of your research to learn about firms. This also means you don't have many options about strategizing. It's way too early to think about this, but you do have to prioritize your firms, and there's some gaming involved (not in the sense of cheating, but in the sense of well prioritizing). Just like applying to law schools, you should have a healthy mix of firms (by market, by ranking, by size, practice, whatever the hell it is that matters to you).
The positives. We are I think top 3 (but definitely top 5) when it comes to the number of firms that recruit at Boalt. First we get all the firms that go to Stanford. Second, a lot of firms come here instead of going to other law schools in the bay area because we cherry pick their top students any way. I don't mean to insult the other schools, but my jaw dropped when two different firms said the same thing (Oh since you guys increased your number of transfers, we've stopped going to X, Y, and Z). We aren't prescreened. Our grades are incomprehensible. They matter to an extent, but the rest of your resume and personality come into play during a lot of interviews (if you strategize properly, they will come into play during ALL of your interviews). If you want geographic options, well, I'm going to LA, my closest friends are going to SF, SV, NY, Chicago, and DC.
Non-profits What Isaac said, plus you have the ability to extern at many Bay Area orgz or branches of national orgs (either during the summer or during the school year).
Academia In all fairness, I think this area could use some improvement. I think the last few faculty appointments out of Boalt were from the JSP program. I have 0 interest in teaching, and in all honesty I don't know how I feel about someone who knows they want to be a law prof as a 0L.
DS won't say anything about job prospects, any of the top schools are about the same in that department.
But, 0Ls should pay attention to the comments on this thread. They may not be representative of the average Boalt student, but they represent perfectly the Boalt student body as a whole. Namely, they illustrate how the majority of students who are moderately left-wing are criticized for being too conservative.
DS is a (-)5 on the economic left/right and (-)3.85 on the libertarian/authoritarian scale on politicalcompass.org (right next to Ghandi, Mandela, and the Dalai Lama). But, DS is also one of the more conservative students (or maybe he is forced to play devil's advocate in class because no one else will) to speak up in class.
DS wishes someone had told him this when he was considering Boalt. It's nice that people in law school, Boalt included, are political. Political discussions are interesting. But only when two sides are represented. And, that is where Boalt fails. Berkeley in general is a lot like DC in that politics is everywhere. But Berkeley offers only one opinion in contrast to DC's two.
0Ls should be aware that their (liberal) political beliefs will likely not be challenged. And any moderate to right beliefs will be labeled extremist federalist society propoganda.
Puh-leeze...can anyone seriously recount a face-to-face confrontation between one of our far-lefties and a moderate? The only scrapping that goes on at Boalt is on this blog. You all have very active imaginations.
I'm -2.25 on econ and -2.5 on social, but I have to doubt the efficacy of any measure that defines the teaching of Ayn Rand as "neo-liberalism," insofar as pure free-market capitalism is, uh, the exact opposite, and is better understood (big surprise) by the exact opposite term: classical liberalism. (Which is obviously different from "liberalism" in the modern political sense, a term largely created by the New Republic in the early part of the 20th century to define the use of government to pursue ends traditionally associated with classic liberalism: freedom of choice, individual perogatives, and natural rights (the idea being that some state intervention is necessary to give meaning and effect to those terms for most people living in a free-market economy)).
I'm sorry, did I get off-topic? Uh, yeah, Boalt's a fun place, job prospects are good, there's few nuts on either side of the aisle, most people are chill. There.
Disco Stu, what are you doing? We were finally getting somewhere!
As a regular reader I cannot recall anyone attacking you on this blog, although I do recall a lot of complaining about Berkeley from you. The only drama I remember was that they had to take down one of your posts that was supposed to be funny but went a bit far. Perhaps some of your issues stem from having a constricted view of the political spectrum. There are many, many views regularly represented at Boalt. But they don't always line up left-right in the traditional Hannity and Colmes format that it sounds like you prefer. Still, even within the narrow conception of the political spectrum, aren't both Judge Bea and Sen. Ted Stevens (R-AK) coming to Boalt this week? And didn't the ACS let the Federalist Society announce the events earlier this week *during their event*? What more do you want? Of course, if you spend too much time on this blog, perhaps it is possible to miss out on just how collegial Boalt really is.
0Ls should also note that your political leanings or ideology will not come into play in every second of your law school life. Some oLs may get the idea from this thread that law school is a bunch of politicos arguing back in forth, but (for good or bad) it's really a lot of reading and reciting cases in class and drinking. no one will come up to you on day 1 and accuse you of being too left, too right, or whatever.
it seems this thread has become a bit political which is great but there are also other things the admits will likely consider or find interesting about law school and especially boalt. come on boalties, what else can we tell them other than berkeley is liberal (something that i have a feeling they already know)?
I've been thinking a lot about the recent comments, in the comments sections and among some of my friends, about N&B being a "conservative" or "Federalist" blog. The charge is worrisome to me on two levels: first, as number of bloggers and others have pointed out, most folks who post here self-identify as (and objectively are) neither conservative nor Federalists. So the charge is factually incorrect. Second, to the extent that commenters use the presence of conservative viewpoints expressed on this blog (such as the Mass v. EPA discussion, which I for one -- though I did not take part -- will readily acknowledge embraced a conservative legal position) to dismiss the blog as "unrepresentative" and therefore somehow not worth reading, I see that as essentially and ad hominem that widely misses the mark.
The main posters here have (to my knowledge) never held themselves out as "representative" of Boalt. But I think we are basically representative of Boalt, because we're Boalt students, and Boalt is, to me, the kind of place where you are recognized by your classmates as a person, not merely a vessel containing a set of political views. I recognize and appreciate that people at Boalt have very strongly held political views (of all stripes), but I think what makes the place special is that it's small enough and open enough that students can get to know each other personally, so that even the most conservative student is not known only as "the ultra-right-winger" (he's known by name! Zing!).
More importantly, to the extent that Armen or any of the main posters have claimed representativeness, we've held out the forum as a whole (including the sometimes hundreds of comments to posts) as fairly representative of the Boalt student community. The fact that such heated discussions and multiple viewpoints arise suggests that in fact the readership of this blog (at least the casual readership) does represent a pretty good cross section, or as good as any other (you can't talk to everyone at admit day!).
To any OLs, and anyone else who cares, if you didn't already know: the views of the main posters, like the views of the commenters, are strictly there own individually. I don't necessarily agree with the viewpoints expressed by my co-bloggers in many of their posts. In some cases, I think their views are narrow-minded, poorly reasoned and so ineptly expressed as to be almost offensive (Tom's post critiquing faculty publishing comes to mind). But this is the Internets -- I think my posts through, if at all, in about five minutes. I have written things that in hindsight were narrow-minded, poorly reasoned and ineptly expressed (though rarely all at once). And everyone -- main posters and commenters -- on this forum is entitled to have and voice an opinion, in their name or anonymously. I respect those rights. That respect for others is part of what Boalt is about.
I think, and some of the previous commenters have alluded to this, the underlying issue that prompted this discussion is one of tone. Boalt is an uncommonly collegial place. That students are so friendly with one another, so infrequently visibly competetive, makes some of the vitriol and hyperbolic language employed on this blog all the more striking. The blog is certainly not representative of Boalt in that respect, and that's a shame (and one reason you've seen less of me posting over the past few months).
So on that note, I'll leave 0Ls with this: come to Boalt. You'll have a job at the end. But more importantly, you'll have spent your law school years in a place where you can learn a ton, from from your profs, from clinics and mentors, from your fellow students, and from the vividness of legal and political life in the bay area and california. From what I can tell from discussions with friends at other "peer schools", Boalt really does foster a special place, a special community, in which to learn law. It's a community I am glad to have been part of.
There’s a great scene on the West Wing where Bartlett and some right-winger are trying to agree on campaign finance reform, and Bartlett says something like, “I’m a yellow-belly egghead Communist liberal” and the other guy says, “And I’m a gun-toting redneck son-of-a-bitch...but we agree on getting money out of politics.”
I think the Boalt version should be: “I’m a Marxist Third-World liberationist flag-burning race-obsessed queer critical theory eco-nut....” “And I’m a limousine liberal white-privilege-loving faux-progressive pro-business barely-Democratic corporate apologist-for-the-hierarchy-which-I-benefit-from-yet-ostensibly-oppose centrist....”
“But we agree Boalt is a great place, with fine weather, relaxed people, great job prospects across the market, a decent amount of sex and drugs, easy requirements and a general lack of cut-throat competition.”
Now can we all kiss and make up?
Well done, 10:16, well done!
And way more entertaining than some of these other posts, so thank you.
Thanks to both Tacitus and 10:16! And to the 0Ls, I doubt any of the other law schools you are considering have ever seen a bunch of anonymous commenters on a blog work out their differences!
Why do I get the feeling that despite the voluem of posts addressing the 0Ls, only a mere handful of 0Ls actually read this blog or this thread?
For those of you interested in getting a job as a law professor, the data for this hiring season so far:
http://lsolum.typepad.com/legaltheory/2007/03/entry_level_hir.html
Here is the number of graduates each top school has placed so far (with approximate size of school in parentheses):
Harvard (550 students) 18
Yale (~190 students) 16
NYU (~400 students) 10
Columbia (~400 students) 9
Boalt (270 students) 7
Chicago (~200 students) 7
Georgetown (~600 students) 6
Stanfurd (~190 students) 6
UVA (~400 students) 6
Texas (~500 students) 5
Michigan (~400 students) 5
--These 11 schools account for 96 of the 138 placements so far this academic year.
11:12's Link
As a 0L, I've found this thread to be pretty amusing. Please, continue.
Although, I would also like to solicit some advice about housing. I've read in various places that there is such a thing as looking too early for housing. If I were to come out this summer, when should I look for a lease that starts about Aug 1?
Start looking around June and you should have no trouble finding something for Aug 1. Welcome!
Why does the admission office need to tell us the race of the two students looking for a place to stay?
I wondered the same thing, 2:35...
I agree, 2:35. Seemed odd.
Back to a topic that I think is more reflective of the Boalt community: complaining. Why haven't the Fall courses been posted yet?
Dear 0Ls,
Here are some things you may want to think about when making your decision: What kind of classes do I want to take and how much flexibility do I want to design my own curriculum? If you like structure provided for you, you may find other schools more comforting, though it would be unfair to say Boalt lacks structure. It's just that one of our strengths is that there is a lot of flexibility, so if you like to customize your own experience, this is a great place for you. We have a wide range of course topics, including bar topics for those who like a straighter path. Those interested in clinics should visit EBCLC, which I think is great. But also keep in mind that San Francisco offers the opportunity to do externships with a ton of government and nonprofit agencies, as well as a ton of judges who take student externs during the school year. You can work on journals your 1L year--which is not the case for many schools. That means you get more experience and by your third year you can do some really cool, substantial editing work if you like that kind of thing (depends on the journal a bit--but there are enough journals where you can pick a scene that works for you. You can also switch journal involvement, or double up).
Unlike a lot of schools, you don't have to do some wacky editing/writing test the week after finals to get on any journal--it's part of our "if you got in here you're smart enough and we're going to treat you like an adult" charm. You do have to try out for law review and moot court--but we have a ton of moot court teams and I've never met anyone who didn't get a chance to compete on some competition if they wanted to. We have trial, appellate, negotiating, and mediation teams. We have a club dedicated to the OC, as well. Yes, the show. We have more piercings, tattoos and fun haircuts than most law schools, I think. Berkeley is sunny most of the time. There is a big park behind campus and tons of nature, if that's what you like. There is a cool music scene and tons of scrappy looking punksters selling jewelry on Telegraph if that's what you like. And there are mellow residential areas where you can avoid both. I repeat--it's sunny most of the time. Our school is very close to the International House and attract great folks from around the world with our LLM program, which is also very cool.
Though it may surprise some to hear it, I would say that Boalt is a more mature law school experience in that a degree of independence is expected, and more respect/autonomy is given. For those seeking to practice in California or the west, Cal's connections and reputations are very well respected.
Other things to consider: students here tend to be opinionated, if you haven't noticed. But classroom dialogue is pretty mellow and people tend to be able to find their niche. Our professors and students use humor regularly, and frequently as a strategy to deal with the fact that not everyone will be prepared all the time—in other words, some profs might use the Socratic method, but in most instances it’s not a big deal and everyone understands imperfection.
I think our students tend to be very dynamic with very interesting backgrounds--phds, artists, parents, policy wonks, and hipster geeks, for example. It's not just a bunch of kids going to law school after one year as a paralegal--though there are some of those and I like them, too.
Oh, and we allow token federalists ;) . Seriusly, we allow them. We may dress up in orange jumpsuits and protest their promotion of torture as foreign policy, but we won't actually harm them... (um-that's a joke. please don't get too distracted by it, folks).
Our faculty is excellent and approachable, but I imagine that will be true for most/all of the schools you are considering. We have a ton of extracurricular programming throughout the year--check out our calendar: movies, lectures, free lunches--so many it can actually be stressful because you may frequently have to choose between a lot of great options. This may not be the case at all of the schools you are considering. Most will have centers, but check to see how many symposiums and events are happening on any given week. Ask students how frequently they attend those events. It may be that by looking at those types of things you get a better sense of which school best fits your personality and needs.
Just a few thoughts. Come visit. See if it's for you.
--A very happy 3L (not employed by admissions, just truly satisfied)
Can I wear jeans and flip flops to admit day?
yes.
Hmm….what about my two half-sleeve tattoos? Can I wear them to Admit Day?
You can come naked if you want. You're already admitted so they aren't going to reject. Any faculty or staff you meet aren't going to remember you. We, current students, certainly aren't going to remember you.
You will meet some fellow 0Ls, and they may remember that you were the one who came in a wifebeater and hot pants, but who cares? Come to Admit Day ready to meet people and have fun. Don't try to impress anyone.
Oh, and don't be the jerk who casually slips into conversation, "Oh, it's so hard picking between Yale and Harvard!"
Yeah, don't be the Max Power of Admit Day. I'm kidding Max, I still remember fondly our discussion of the Dodgers during Admit day.
Does anyone know the schedule for tomorrow?
Haven't read the blog for awhile so I was interested in the catfight over whether this blog is "representative." First, a good number of students don't know it exists and if they do, they are too busy to check it (with the possible exception of taking a Saturday night break from exam-studying).
I did, however, want to take issue with Tacitus' earlier quote claiming that the posters are "bascically representative of Boalt."
To my knowledge, all of the posters are men, despite a 50%+ female population at Boalt. So, to the extent the blog gets criticized on that count, it deserves it.
Finally, with regard to "liberal" vs. "conservative" at Boalt. Let's not kid ourselves. Basically, everyone at Boalt has one thing in common, which trumps ideology in my book: the vast majority of students likely have very privileged backgrounds (as measured by average education/income opportunity in the US) or uncommon talent to beat the odds and land a rare slot at a Top 10 law school. So, the biggest homogeneity comes from a student body that generally comes from the most privileged families/communities in America. As a caveat, I'm sure the same can be said for the vast majority of law schools, particularly those in the top 10.
That said, I tend to agree that so-called "conservatives" on campus have a persecution complex. At least in my classes, the conservatives I know have every opportunity to speak but simply stay silent and even try to hide their beliefs. In undergrad, as one of the liberal minority, I never self-censored my comments. I spoke my mind. So, I really don't think they have much to complain about.
Bump.
FYI, Boalt is #6 in per capita Supreme Court clerkship placement so far this century:
http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2000_07_scotus_clerks.shtml
to the person who said CLR doesn't matter because "Tood [sic] Gluth" wasn't on CLR and most professors think it's absurd that CLR selects members without concern for grades - do your homework. other schools use this same selection process. like, say, Stanford. Harvard also accepts most of its members based on the write-on, only reserving a few seats based on grades.
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