2007 OCIP Callbacks
Sorry all, I've been busy moving. Alright, leave callback offers and rejections here. I will delete the comments that just list the call back info. Be sure to check out the format from the OCIP threads from prior years on the sidebar. Just in case you're too lazy: Firm Name, Office, + or -.
A few notes. I am not participating in my firm's recruitment process this year in any way (at least I'm not aware that I am) so that's why I am doing this. And I'm too much of an egomaniac to give admin access to someone else (for now). Also, I personally hate doing this, but some find it useful. If you don't, please do not read it. If you freak out easily, don't read it.
Lastly, if you are comfortable with e-mailing me (I promise not to reveal your id in any way, shape, or form) please do so at armenaut-at-gmail. This will make things infinitely easier for me in the next few weeks as I juggle unpacking, starting work, and fantasy football/baseball overlap.
Good luck.
Update: Ok, I'm moving it up, but I'm a bit busy so I may not update the listing today.
***
Akin Gump, DC +, LA +, NY -, SF +/-, SV +
Alameda DA +
Allen Matkins, LA +, OC +, SF +/-
Arnold & Porter, DC +, LA -
Baker Botts, DC +
Baker McKenzie, DC -, SD -, SF +, SV +
Beyer Weaver, Oak+
Bingham, W.LA +, SF +, SV +, WC +
Boies Schiller, DC +, NY +
Bryan Cave, W.LA +, OC +
Chadbourne, NY +
Chapman Cutler, SF -
Cleary, DC +/-, NY +/-
Cooley, SD -, SF+/-, SV +/-
Covington & Burling, DC +/-, SF +/-
Cox Castle, LA +
Crowell & Moring, DC +
Cravath, NY +
Curtis, NY +
Davis Polk, NY +/-, SV +/-
Davis Wright, LA -, SF -
DCPD, +
Debevoise, NY +/-
Dechert, Bos +, DC +/-, NB +, NY +, SF +/-, SV +
Dewey, LA +, SV +
Dickinson Peatman Fogarty, Napa +
DLA Piper, Chi +/-, LA +, NY +, SD +/-, SF +/-, SV +/-
Dow Lohnes, DC -
Drinker Biddle, SF -
Faegre & Benson, MN +
Farella, SF +/-
Fenwick, SV +
Fish & Richardson, Bos +, NY -, SD +/-, SV +
Foley Lardner, LA +, SF +
Folger, SF -
Freshfields, Lon +/-, NY +
Fried Frank, DC +/-, NY +/-
Fulbright, LA +/-, NY +
Gibson Dunn, DC -, LA +, NY +, OC +/-, SF +/-, SV +/-
Gibson Robb & Lindh +
Goodwin Proctor, Bos +, DC -, LA +, NY +, SF -, SV +
Gordon Rees, DC -
Greenburg Traurig, DC -, LA +/-, NY -, SV +/-
Greene Rodovsky, SF +
Gunderson, SV +/-
Hanson Bridgett +/-
Heller, LA +, NY +/-, SD +, SF +/-, SV +
Hogan & Hartson, DC +/-, LA +, NY +
Holland & Knight, DC -, LA +, SF -
Holme Roberts & Owen, SF +/-
Howard Rice, SF +/-
Hughes Hubbard, NY +/-, LA +
Hunton and Williams, DC -, NY +
Irell, LA +/-, NB +/-
Jeffer Mangels, LA +
Jenner & Block, Chi +/-
Jones Day, DC +/-, LA +, NY +, SF +/-, SV +
Kaye Scholer, LA +
Keker, SF -
Kenyons, SV +
King & Spalding, NY +
Kirkland, DC +/-, LA +/-, NY -, SF +/-
Kirkpatrick Lockhart, LA -
Kramer Levin, NY +
Latham, Chi -, DC +, HK -, LA +, NY +/-, SD +, SF +/-, SV +/-
LeBoeuf, DC +, NY +, SF +
Lewis Feinberg Lee +
Lief Cabreser, -
Loebs, LA -
Luce Forward, SD +/-
Manatt, LA -, NY +, SV -
Mayer Brown, Chi +, DC +, LA +, SV +
McDermott, Chi +, DC +, LA +/-, OC +
Milbank Tweed, LA +/-, NY +
Mitchell Silberberg, LA -
Morgan Lewis, DC +, LA +/-, SF +/-, SV +/-
MoFo, LA +, NY +, OC +, SD +/-, SF +/-, SV +/-, Tok +
Munger, LA -
Nichols Castor, SF +
Nixon, SF +/-, NY +
Norton Rose, Lon +
Office of Leg. Counsel, DC -
O'Melveny, CC +/-, DC +, LA +, NY +/-, OC +, SF +, SV +
Orrick, LA +/-, NY +, SF +/-, Sea -, SV +/-
Patterson, NY +/-
Paul Hastings, Chi +, DC +, LA +, NY +, SF +, SV +
Paul Weiss, NY +/-
Perkins Coie, Sea -, SF +, SV +/-
Pillsbury, DC +, LA +, NY +, SF +, SV +
Pircher, LA +
Proskauer Rose, LA +, NY +/-
Quinn, LA -, SF +/-
Reed Smith, LA +, Oak +, SF +
Ropes & Gray, Bos +, DC -, NY +, SF +/-, SV +
Rutan, OC +
Schiff Hardin, Chi -, SF +/-
Sedgwick, -
Shartsis Friese +
Shearman & Sterling, NY +, SF +/-, SV -
Sheppard Mullin, LA +, OC +, SD +, SF +/-
Shook, Hardy & Bacon, SF +
Shulte Roth, NY +
Sidley, Chi +, DC +, LA +, NY +, SF +
Simpson, LA +/-, NY +/-, SV +/-
Skadden, HK +, LA +/-, NY +/-, SF +, SV +
Sonnenscheim, SF -, SV +
Squire, SF/SV +
Steefel, SF +/-
Steptoe & Johnson, DC +
Sullivan & Cromwell, DC -, LA +, NY +, SV -
Thelen, NY +, SF +/-, SV +
Townsend^2, SD -, SV +
Wachtell, + (rumors)/-
Weil, NY +, SV +
White & Case, LA +/-, SV +/-
Williams & Connelly +/-
Willkie Farr, NY +/-
Wilmer Hale, Bos +, DC +/-, PA +, NY +/-, SV -
Wilson Sonsini, SV +
Winston, Chi +, DC +/-, LA +/-, SF +/-
A few notes. I am not participating in my firm's recruitment process this year in any way (at least I'm not aware that I am) so that's why I am doing this. And I'm too much of an egomaniac to give admin access to someone else (for now). Also, I personally hate doing this, but some find it useful. If you don't, please do not read it. If you freak out easily, don't read it.
Lastly, if you are comfortable with e-mailing me (I promise not to reveal your id in any way, shape, or form) please do so at armenaut-at-gmail. This will make things infinitely easier for me in the next few weeks as I juggle unpacking, starting work, and fantasy football/baseball overlap.
Good luck.
Update: Ok, I'm moving it up, but I'm a bit busy so I may not update the listing today.
***
Akin Gump, DC +, LA +, NY -, SF +/-, SV +
Alameda DA +
Allen Matkins, LA +, OC +, SF +/-
Arnold & Porter, DC +, LA -
Baker Botts, DC +
Baker McKenzie, DC -, SD -, SF +, SV +
Beyer Weaver, Oak+
Bingham, W.LA +, SF +, SV +, WC +
Boies Schiller, DC +, NY +
Bryan Cave, W.LA +, OC +
Chadbourne, NY +
Chapman Cutler, SF -
Cleary, DC +/-, NY +/-
Cooley, SD -, SF+/-, SV +/-
Covington & Burling, DC +/-, SF +/-
Cox Castle, LA +
Crowell & Moring, DC +
Cravath, NY +
Curtis, NY +
Davis Polk, NY +/-, SV +/-
Davis Wright, LA -, SF -
DCPD, +
Debevoise, NY +/-
Dechert, Bos +, DC +/-, NB +, NY +, SF +/-, SV +
Dewey, LA +, SV +
Dickinson Peatman Fogarty, Napa +
DLA Piper, Chi +/-, LA +, NY +, SD +/-, SF +/-, SV +/-
Dow Lohnes, DC -
Drinker Biddle, SF -
Faegre & Benson, MN +
Farella, SF +/-
Fenwick, SV +
Fish & Richardson, Bos +, NY -, SD +/-, SV +
Foley Lardner, LA +, SF +
Folger, SF -
Freshfields, Lon +/-, NY +
Fried Frank, DC +/-, NY +/-
Fulbright, LA +/-, NY +
Gibson Dunn, DC -, LA +, NY +, OC +/-, SF +/-, SV +/-
Gibson Robb & Lindh +
Goodwin Proctor, Bos +, DC -, LA +, NY +, SF -, SV +
Gordon Rees, DC -
Greenburg Traurig, DC -, LA +/-, NY -, SV +/-
Greene Rodovsky, SF +
Gunderson, SV +/-
Hanson Bridgett +/-
Heller, LA +, NY +/-, SD +, SF +/-, SV +
Hogan & Hartson, DC +/-, LA +, NY +
Holland & Knight, DC -, LA +, SF -
Holme Roberts & Owen, SF +/-
Howard Rice, SF +/-
Hughes Hubbard, NY +/-, LA +
Hunton and Williams, DC -, NY +
Irell, LA +/-, NB +/-
Jeffer Mangels, LA +
Jenner & Block, Chi +/-
Jones Day, DC +/-, LA +, NY +, SF +/-, SV +
Kaye Scholer, LA +
Keker, SF -
Kenyons, SV +
King & Spalding, NY +
Kirkland, DC +/-, LA +/-, NY -, SF +/-
Kirkpatrick Lockhart, LA -
Kramer Levin, NY +
Latham, Chi -, DC +, HK -, LA +, NY +/-, SD +, SF +/-, SV +/-
LeBoeuf, DC +, NY +, SF +
Lewis Feinberg Lee +
Lief Cabreser, -
Loebs, LA -
Luce Forward, SD +/-
Manatt, LA -, NY +, SV -
Mayer Brown, Chi +, DC +, LA +, SV +
McDermott, Chi +, DC +, LA +/-, OC +
Milbank Tweed, LA +/-, NY +
Mitchell Silberberg, LA -
Morgan Lewis, DC +, LA +/-, SF +/-, SV +/-
MoFo, LA +, NY +, OC +, SD +/-, SF +/-, SV +/-, Tok +
Munger, LA -
Nichols Castor, SF +
Nixon, SF +/-, NY +
Norton Rose, Lon +
Office of Leg. Counsel, DC -
O'Melveny, CC +/-, DC +, LA +, NY +/-, OC +, SF +, SV +
Orrick, LA +/-, NY +, SF +/-, Sea -, SV +/-
Patterson, NY +/-
Paul Hastings, Chi +, DC +, LA +, NY +, SF +, SV +
Paul Weiss, NY +/-
Perkins Coie, Sea -, SF +, SV +/-
Pillsbury, DC +, LA +, NY +, SF +, SV +
Pircher, LA +
Proskauer Rose, LA +, NY +/-
Quinn, LA -, SF +/-
Reed Smith, LA +, Oak +, SF +
Ropes & Gray, Bos +, DC -, NY +, SF +/-, SV +
Rutan, OC +
Schiff Hardin, Chi -, SF +/-
Sedgwick, -
Shartsis Friese +
Shearman & Sterling, NY +, SF +/-, SV -
Sheppard Mullin, LA +, OC +, SD +, SF +/-
Shook, Hardy & Bacon, SF +
Shulte Roth, NY +
Sidley, Chi +, DC +, LA +, NY +, SF +
Simpson, LA +/-, NY +/-, SV +/-
Skadden, HK +, LA +/-, NY +/-, SF +, SV +
Sonnenscheim, SF -, SV +
Squire, SF/SV +
Steefel, SF +/-
Steptoe & Johnson, DC +
Sullivan & Cromwell, DC -, LA +, NY +, SV -
Thelen, NY +, SF +/-, SV +
Townsend^2, SD -, SV +
Wachtell, + (rumors)/-
Weil, NY +, SV +
White & Case, LA +/-, SV +/-
Williams & Connelly +/-
Willkie Farr, NY +/-
Wilmer Hale, Bos +, DC +/-, PA +, NY +/-, SV -
Wilson Sonsini, SV +
Winston, Chi +, DC +/-, LA +/-, SF +/-
Labels: Grades And Other Neurotic Bullshit, OCIP/Employment, Rankings And Associated Bullshit
posted by Armen Adzhemyan at 5:18 PM
277 Comments:
What happened to Howard Rice?
Conversely, when people make redundant posts, it does NOT help me.
kirkland rejection came via email or snail mail?
Kirkland rejection was via snail mail, believe it or not. I must have been a remarkably underwhelming candidate to get a rejection so quickly! ;-)
Don't worry you aren't alone, got mine today too.
how / when did the orrick sv callback come?
Cal +
Tennessee -
may i also ask how/when did the orrick SF call back come??
May I ask, in what form did the Milbank callback come?
Orrick SF callback came via phone call.
Anybody have any thoughts or experience with waiting to schedule callbacks until fly back week? If one is interviewing locally (LA, SF) do you think chances for offers are lessened by waiting until October? I guess I'm wondering if the firms might fill all their spots with earlier interviewees in the next month.
If you are invited for a callback in the bay area, I would not wait. You will likely get interviewed by "fresher" people and you will be fresher as well. We calculated at my firm and to get the summer class we want, everyone in our group will have to interview multiple candidates. Do you want to be at the tail end of all those interviews?
After lots of interviews, it's really hard to make it seem that you haven't said all of the same things a million times over.
And, if you are interviewing in a smaller office, they might find someone else to fill a spot before you have time to interview.
I also think it's a good idea to interview as soon as possible. A firm may have twenty intended spots for a summer class. There's more competition when there are fewer spots available.
Everybody knows the very low chance of a callback when sitting in a screening interview. Most firms have at least one schedule with 20 people from each school for each office. Of these, I've only been seeing maybe 2-3 callbacks per 20 people.
However, can anybody shed some light on what's the typical chance of an offer after your callback?
6:09 - check out the stats in the OCIP book. Although past performance isn't necessarily an indicator of future performance, it's helpful to see what the office has done in the past. Some made offers to everyone who did a call back interview, others made none or only 1.
okay so as for waiting/scheduling now... when do most firms fill up? I'm curious how our fall break is scheduled relative to that... I would much rather to call backs then but don't want to severely hurt my chances.
If you're interviewing in SF there is no reason to wait to schedule your callbacks, do it as soon as possible. If you're interviewing elsewhere and have to travel, waiting until fall break makes more sense.
10:45--how did you get your callback?
what is with all these how did you get your callback questions? The firms call on the phone, what do you think happened?
Could be email.
I thought "callbacks come by phone" was obvious, but Orrick LA did send their invite by e-mail.
Best question I've gotten thus far:
If I had 1 summer spot, and it was between a Boalt student and a Stanford student, which should I choose and why?
Sweet jesus.
A: "You would pick the student who declined to answer that question, because you value team players."
I actually responded by asking him if it was a serious question. He said no.
umm... anyone else finding it impossible to log onto BLine? kind of a problem considering theres no other way to figure out interviews....
yep, b-line appears to be down.
Whew. Thank god. I was actually starting to get worried that you little pricks would not have a b-line meltdown. But I see that that the school's IT continues to adhere to firmly grounded precedents. Stare decisis is alive and well. See, Update II here.
thanks armen, but its working again :)
Does anyone have any thoughts on whether you should schedule the morning (with lunch) or the afternoon interview session for callbacks?
hey i had a voice mail from my Morgan Lewis LA interviewer saying he had a "question" for me... I returned the call and he didn't answer.
any thoughts?
Holland and Knight - interviewed for SF office, callback to LA
Could someone (armen?) start a new clerkship posting?
thanks!
Cooley Godward - Palo Alto + (but I interviewed for SF - interviewer said he would get back to me about that)
cooley person, can you give me a general idea of your grades--trying to figure out if i should bother to hope or not
from "cooley person"... my grades were pretty good. Only one P
Holmes Roberts Owen person: you should know that last summer HRO revoked their offer to a Boalt student six days before the summer program was supposed to start, leaving the student scrambling for another job. HRO said it was because of a conflict of interest with a non-profit the student had externed at the semester before. The non-profit called HRO and offered to sign a waiver, which is what most firms require for conflicts, but HRO was inflexible and refused to take the Boalt student. So if you get an offer, accept at your own risk.
Ropes and Gray SF person: When and how did you get your callback if you don't mind ?
Re question on Ropes and Gray SF callback method: I got a phone call and an email around 7:45 tonight.
7:53 and others looking for clerkship talk, I'll create a general thread below the OCIP either tonight or tomorrow.
to morgan lewis poster: not the same case, but I had one callback that didn't actually tell me on my voicemail that they were calling me back. it's possible they just want to tell you live. I wouldn't fret. call back confidently.
Friend (also a Boalt student) had a bad experience at H&K LA last summer. Beware.
is it safe to assume that an office gives out all its callback invitations in a single day?
Anyone still waiting to here from Kirkland SF? I saw callbacks and rejections have gone out, but I haven't heard either way...
Dude, can you take 3 freakin seconds to check the list? This may come as a shock, but a lot of times you are NOT the first person they call. It's really a pain in the ass to constantly update things. Add to that deleting useless comments, and my job gets that much harder while I'm trying to watch TV!!!!
Is it worth missing class to go out to dinner with a firm you care about? Do they put any stock at all in who comes or is it just meant to be a perk for the students? Any words of wisdom on this one?
I'd miss the second coming of Christ for a fancy dinner in Berkeley. Are you nuts? What's one day of class going to give you? What the hell is wrong with you people?
haha fine. thanks for your wisdom armen. -10:51
Can you elaborate on bad experience re H + K LA?
I highly doubt that all callback offers go out the same day, although it probably depends on the office size.
Also, skip class and go to the dinner. You'll meet more of the attorneys and see them interact and get a feel for what it might be like to actually have to see them everyday (and night). While they likely will bring only the best and the brightest, you may be surprised.
If a firm says a dinner is "casual", what should I wear? Business casual?
Err on the side of dressing up, rather than down. Keep in mind that some attorneys are coming straight from the interviews, or from work.
If they say casual, definitely do not wear a suit. Business casual at dressiest. If it's Quinn Emanuel, jeans and flip flops are truly fine.
how did the Ropes & Gray rejection come?
I just want to point out that 2Ls shouldn't be discouraged if they haven't heard yet heard back from firms that are already listed.
I just got a callback from an office that has been listed with "+" on Monday.
Ditto to 3:59. I got a callback at least a full day after it was posted on Nuts & Boalts.
I have a strategy question. So, there is one firm that people got call backs from about a week before I did.... does this mean I am less likely to get an offer there? Should I factor this in to my decision of where to do call backs?
Don't worry if you get a late call back. Callbacks are based on some sort of grades/writing sample/interviewer's personal preference. The rest of the firm may not share the interviewer's view on the candidate.
Also the people who got callbacks earlier may be skywalker-types that have no intention of going to said firm.
If you get a callback, make the most of it whenever it comes. If you get an offer from somewhere you'd like to go, then start declining callbacks if you feel swamped.
to the person with the strategy question - no, i wouldnt say it means anything other than they got around to calling you later.
Kirkland LA is doing rejections via snail mail as well.
Any callbacks for 3Ls?
how many callbacks should someone do? any thoughts on what is reasonable?
I don't think it's a good idea to post 3L call backs. There's just not enough of you to provide any sort of a meaningful anonymity.
As for the number of callbacks, it's a bit fluid. 20 is too much, 2 is too low, 8 to 12 seems to be the -1 to 1 standard deviation range.
Bear in mind, the classes before you clamored to have Boalt move its OCIP dates up to give you guys more time to decide on firms. When we interviewed, I think we had something like two weeks to narrow it down to 3 firms under NALP guidelines. So use this extra time wisely to sneak in a California call back that you otherwise may not have done. Also keep in mind that you may want to revisit the firm. It's perfectly acceptable, esp. if the firm is not local, to ask to go back to check out the city and the firm again. You are determining your very first career paths, and you will more than make up for it to the firm.
mofo sf+
weil sv+
ps there is no weil pa hth
what should you do if you accepted a callback but are no longer really interested? is it acceptable to cancel so that someone else can go or should you just keep i?
RE: 8:49's splitting hairs-->
Weil (PA) + = Weil (redwood shores / SV) +
pair that with:
Orrick (SV / menlo park) -
(via letter)
I call bullshit on the MoFo SF callback... which day did you interview? The fifth or the sixth? (I retract my bullshit call if you interviewed on the fifth)
MoFo was making calls within an hour of interviews ending.
Re: MoFo SF, I interviewed on the 6th and heard back around 9pm that same night.
If you are really not interested in the firm from whom you accepted a callback, call them back to cancel.
It's a lot of work for the recruiters and for the people who will interview you so it's better not to waste their time if you know you don't want to go there.
I cancelled a couple of callbacks I had accepted with no obvious repercussions. In fact, several recruiters told me that if I changed my mind, to just call them back.
when did the gibson PA callback come?
anyone go to one of the "gibson dinners" and not get a callback? and to the people who got gibson callbacks, did they come at dinner, after dinner, phone, email?
went to a Gibson dinner and still haven't heard.
I got a callback but wasn't invited to, nor did I know about any dinner(s).
What were they? Were you invited at your screening interview?
along the same lines as 12:18's comment -- what's the deal with these dinners? i've gotten several callbacks but nada dinner invites. any logic to this?
I too got the Gibson dinner invite but have not heard yet.
About the Gibson dinner - I went to the dinner last week; got a callback by phone earlier this week.
Gibson Irvine +
Went to the dinner. Emailed them last night saying I was donig a callback for another OC firm x day, and wondering if I should keep the day after open for them.
Emailed me back today saying I had a callback.
So much for being anonymous...
Anyone hear from Farella?
or fenwick?
how did the cooley SF rejection come?
re: townsend AIM conversation above.
unbelievable. guess I know what callback I won't be accepting.
White & Case SV-
Cooley SV-
great day!
hey, 5:41pm, what Townsend AIM conversation? My callback came toaday after what I considered an unimpressive interview. I'm considering going to the callback to get a better picture. Should I not?
I don't know what's up with the Townsend AIM conversation, but I know people who've had great experiences summering there...
lots of small envelopes today (dupes omitted):
cooley sv-
howard sf-
morgan lewis sf-
morgan lewis sv+
aim conversation: check the townsend link in the list.
The dinner invites are typically a good (but not great) sign: they're considering offering a callback, but wanted some extra time to get to know you. A dinner means you weren't eliminated after the screening interview. Of course, as was mentioned above, many people get callbacks without getting dinners.
"Random 3L",
Thanks for the explanation re: dinners. Now I know and knowing is half the battle.
when did people hear from fenwick?
Quinn dinner invite means you're getting a callback. No Quinn dinner invite means no callback.
Last year O'Melveny (LA & CC) dinners equaled callback.
I summered at Townsend and think it's a great firm. And Townsend is hardly a sweatshop.
I heard back from Fenwick SV on 8/30 via email.
But no dinner doesn't necessarily mean no callback. Gibson, for example, had their dinner last Thursday and came back and interviewed for at least half the day on Friday. So Friday interviewees could not have been invited to dinner, but that doesn't mean they won't get called back. Also if your particular interviewer/office can't go to the firm's dinner, they might not invite you even though you hear about a "Skadden dinner." Or maybe some locations are holding dinner, but others aren't.
Alternatively, if you got invited to a dinner and didn't get a callback...hopefully you didn't want to work at that firm anyway.
Any news on Farella?
anyone know typically what percentage of callbacks get offers?
"Percentage" by what? Overall across all firms? In the Bay Area? The firms that YOU are applying to? By firm? What would a "percentage" tell you?
You can't really use numbers too much at the call back stage. The firm is obviously interested enough that they are spending money on you (and every minute spent interviewing is a minute spent not billing). You'll meet X attorneys so that you and they can judge if you two can fit. It's not about academics any more. So I ask again, what the hell is a "percentage" going to tell you?
Oh and go Pac-10!!!
Armen's right, but prior callback performance history can be useful. Look at these 2L callback:offer ratios from the OCIP handbook:
Gibson Dunn SF - 25:22
Drinker Biddle SF - 7:1
Weil NY - 14:14
DPW NY - 9:3
Those statistics don't say anything about an individual's chances. But it does show that some firms scrutinize candidates during callbacks, while others are just making sure that people aren't social retards.
dla piper sf +
everyone's a winner at nixon peabody
To the Fenwick person,
I realize the + is up there, but could you just confirm that it was a - that you heard by e-mail? Thanks.
Errr... In case there's any ambiguity, the firms I listed above were chosen as opposite ends of the callback spectrum. It's NOT a list if my own callbacks!
That rejection for Holland & Knight was the San Francisco Office
Yesterday, I was the ultimate rock star (all via small envelopes):
Cleary NY -
Greenberg Traurig NY -
Fulbright LA -
Let's see someone do better than that...
Yes, I did get a callback from Fenwick Mountain View, first via email on 8/30 and then by phone the following day.
-Fenwick person
Since this whole thread isn't anti-chill-Boalt-image enough already . . .
Does anyone think firms, like law schools, protect their yield a little bit? i.e. has anyone not gotten a callback from a firm that would otherwise seem like a 'safety' for him/her? maybe it came across in my interview or something, but i got dinged (well, haven't heard) from one I didnt think would ding me but have had great luck with most of the others . . .
4:58--Yes.
4:58 -- You're right on the money: (1) This thread does not do wonders for Boalt's chill rep and (2) Firms do seem to be protecting their yields: I have literally been rejected by more safeties than I've gotten callbacks from what I considered as my 'reaches'. Go figure.
Skadden SF+ (sorry)
Question: If I have an evening interview (5:30pm) in NYC, what time should I book my flight leaving Oakland/SF? Should insane Manhattan rush hour traffic also be a factor?
excuse me. that was supposed to be Cooley SF +
12:55....you're gonna want to fly the day before. it takes an average of 8 hours to fly cross-country, plus you've got the time change (they're 3 hours ahead of us).
6:05 is right. You don't want to take a same day flight. At worst a red eye, but flying the night before is best. You can check into your hotel, freshen up, etc.
4:58, I also think firms yield protect. It's the only thing that rationally explains my results so far (callbacks from lots of top vault firms, heard nothing from most others). Of course, there may be some other explanation and I just can't think of it.
4:58 here again - thanks for the replies, all - since I posted, the trend has totally continued!
maybe the lesser-ranked firms just get back to people later so that people can turn them down and save everyone's time if they've already scheduled their "reach" call-backs? i say that because I haven't heard negatively from my two would-be yield protectors . . .
8:57 here -- Baker & McKenzie, that is...
Re: 4:58, I don't actually think that this thread does anything to dissipat e Boalt's "chill rep." Since almost everyone but Armen posts as anonymous, it's not like anyone is bragging on their callbacks -- I mean, at the worst, you know that someone got a callback for X firm, but it seems probable that someone has to get called back, right? If anything, this thread gives me the feeling that the only competition here is Boalt students vs. The Firms, which I think is a pretty accurate way of characterizing this whole weird-assed process.
Armen, et al.: Thanks for the advice on flying back east. Will definitely fly the night before.
Hmm Wilson by e-mail you say?
I can't think of why it would be firms' best interest to yield protect. Law schools do it to protect their USNWR ranking, but I don't think declined-callback stats count for anything. It seems odd that firms would be so self-loathing to look at outstanding credentials and conclude "s/he is just too good for us, let's not even bother." As an alternative theory, I think that people interview differently with their reaches, as compared to their safeties. When interviewing with a safety, it may come across -- from a lack of research, or genuine enthusiasm -- that you are only interviewing with the firm because they are in market X, in case an offer from firm Y doesn't come through.
Well, it would be in the firm's best interest not to waste money on bringing you in for a callback when it is clear you're not going to accept any offer. But I still think all you yield-protectors need to just admit that you gave crappy interviews because you didn't care about the firm or that (god forbid) you're not actually that irresistible. Perhaps you came off as just a bit smug?
On a side note, did anyone who got the fenwick callback interview for tax?
Well, actually, to support the yield-protecting theory, I am genuinely interested in working at some of the non-"top" firms or whatever, so I doubt I came across as less than enthusiastic in every single one of the interviews in which I had a genuine desire to work for the firm. I'm not being smug, just trying to think of real reasons I haven't heard back from any of those firms, but have gotten callbacks from firms that seem to care more about grades. So who knows.
On that note, it seems possible that what's going on is that 'safety' firms might care less about grades and more about how you come across in the interview...and that it's not that Person X isn't prepared or enthusiastic, it's just that your interviewing skills aren't fantastic or whatever. In firms that care about grades, the transcript might mask that - for safety schools, they might not.
(Disclaimer: I write this after having the same experience of being rejected by my safety firms).
Alternately, maybe the two sets of firms (if they can be divided that clearly) are just looking for different characteristics/qualities during the 20 minutes, and our pitch for group A doesn't work as well for group B.
sorry about the above post. I swear before I posted, the information was not up - I guess the only useful info is the rejection from Kirkland NY.
Got a callback offer yesterday from a firm I interviewed with on the first day of interviews (8/29, I think). Point is, if they haven't rejected you - there's still hope. Good luck.
very uncomfortable = getting a phone call from a firm saying that they aren't inviting you back. Isn't a letter enough??
Try getting a call after a call back that they're not giving you an offer. Now that was awkward.
So riddle me this... anyone know why I've gotten several callbacks from top NY firms, but only 1 from DC even though the place I applied for there were lower ranked and I lived in the city for two summers! I have no connection to NYC whatsoever. Confused with the lack of DC love.
a friend in a DC school said a couple of big firms there cancelled interviews--might be a market issue, but can't imagine what is hitting DC, but not NY
Is wearing a dress to a business causal dinner appropriate? If a wear pearls? I *hate* suits and *hate* business skirts even more. Advice?
and by "a" I mean "I" and causal I mean "casual" - sorry I am sleep deprived from so many interviews...
1. Sleep. The CDO doesn't schedule interviews at midnight for a reason.
2. Proofread everything. Firms don't like sloppy writing (or talking).
3. Dresses are ok for business casual. With the present weather, a lot of female attorneys are wearing summer dresses. But remember, be conservative. You can make a fashion statement during the BLF auction.
Finally, some much needed rejections from my reaches! Now my dreams can retreat quietly into the background while I struggle to come to grips with working at ugh...someone else's safety.
Cleary DC -
Gibson SF -
A thrilling day at the mailbox...
Jones Day SF -
Gibson SF -
Farella -
to 5:10 - excuse me for being a chees[nose], but i had an advisor at some point tell me to reach for the stars, and then that way, if you miss, you get the moon. :)
That pretty much says everything that needs to be said about the "competitiveness" of Boalt during OCIP and beyond.
DLA SF-
a) Sorry for the DLA dupe directly above
b) Can anyone comment on the Orrick SV-? I have not heard either way, and am wondering if I should shoot the recruiter an email to make sure they haven't simply forgotten to send my small envelope.
Don't do something retarded like e-mailing the recruiter and saying, "So on this blog it says that you guys sent out rejections to Boalties. Did you forget to send mine? I mean I definitely bombed your interview..."
The CDO is the better place to ask questions like this, but I think something along the lines of:
"Dear So and So:
I really enjoyed meeting with you on. While I would really love to meet more attorneys from [blank], I also need to plan my interviewing schedule for call backs. Can you possibly tell me what the timing of the decision-making process looks like?"
This is just a rough guide. It all depends on how your interview went, how you felt about the attorney, etc. I know there was at least one firm where I fired off an informal e-mail asking basically if I should leave a slot open in XYZ City. There were other firms that I wouldn't dare talk to. If you don't get it, don't blame me.
Armen - Ah yes, the CDO in their infinite wisdom. So you envision emailing the actual interviewer? The guy actually intimated that he would recommend me for a callback -- sentiments which I do take with a grain of salt, but also indicate that at least the interview wasn't bombed.
There's no set rule, but the interviewer was your initial contact with the firm. You at least have some rapport with him. I suppose you COULD e-mail the hiring partner: "Hi Larry, this is Jeff. What's the story?"
don't worry if you don't hear back after an OCIP interview even after the interviewer intimates or tells you they will call you back. I had that with one firm and it took them two or more weeks to get back to me.
I had a nightmare last night where I accidentally forwarded porn to all my interviewers. And I tried to use Outlook's "recall message" feature. This is the sad state of affairs OCIP has put me in [preposition].
All this waiting to hear back from firm's that have already sent out rejects is driving me crazy... I guess it's good that I haven't gotten a slim envelope yet, but I'd rather know. Anyone know on average what the upper limit on hearing back from these places is? And can I do anything, since I'm clearly a borderline candidate? I don't want to stalk my interviewer, but I also want to do everything in my power to increase my chances.
okay so another etiquette question here... how do you turn down a call back? do you call the person who interviewed you, or do you call the recruiting contact whose number they give to you?
Call whoever gave you the callback and just be gracious.
The CDO lady said at the lunch thing today that you call the recruiter to cancel a callback and if you want to be extra-polite you drop an e-mail to let the lawyer know you won't be coming. I highly doubt, if you skipped the super-polite e-mail, the lawyer who invited you will ever look up and wonder, "When is that Bob coming to interview." I must imagine they forget we exist pretty quickly.
Did anyone else feel like the Morgan Lewis LA interviewer was only interested in men? Supposedly he talked through the whole interview with the girls and actually asked the guys questions. And let's not even get into the behavior at the reception. I'd like to hear others' thoughts if they have any . . .
9:57, which office(s)?
Any advice if your callback includes "cocktails"? How long do those normally last? Would it be a bad idea if I told them I had another event later that same evening?
Any advice about which firm to make my host? I am interviewing in two cities and want a triangle ticket over fly back, but worry this will make me look bad. They already know I'm looking at both, but I'm worried rubbing it in their face will be bad... Should I pick my least favorite firm? Does it matter at all?
That's governed by NALP if I'm not mistaken. Traditionally, the first firm you visit on your trip acts as your host for the rest of the trip. Just contact the recruiter and tell him/her that you'll be visiting other firms, but XYZ is the first firm on the trip. And they'll then act as a host.
Typically, their travel service will make all your arrangements, bill the first firm, and in your NALP form you'll just list all the other firms.
I declined my first callback today... I really felt bad. They asked me which other firms I was interviewing with, and it struck me that I should follow their lead.
Dear Firm,
I am sorry to hear that you will not be offering me a callback interview. I know this can be a somewhat overwhelming time and you must have many top-notch students to choose from. Do you mind sharing which students you have decided to interview with? I just use the information for my own records/statistics.
Regards,
Boaltie
any one got a response for the thank you note from Debevoise NY? I got a note which ask me to keep the option open. What does it mean?
In what form did the Latham rejection come? was it a letter or email?
for Latham NY that is...
Does anyone know if the same firm but different location would compete with each other? Basically, I'm wandering if recruiters amongst the same firm, diff. location, discuss candidates with one another and possibly back off if one location has already taken "dibs"...thoughts?
Wachtell NY - (shock)
anyone heard one way or another from manatt sv or la?
OMM is really up front that if one office wants you, that's the office that gets you. There's really no such thing as interviewing with two OMM offices. At least that's how it was explained to me during my OCIP. Other firms will (if you scroll up in the comments) give you call backs to offices that you did not interview for. There's a huge gray area in between.
10:10--I'm also waiting to hear from Manatt either way.
I'm interviewing with two OMM offices. I asked in my screener if I should express a preference if I liked one office's practice groups/location/size better. They said all offices recruit and hire completely independently of each other and that they wouldn't take the fact that you were interviewing with the other into consideration at all. And even though I still specified a preference for one, the other called me back too.
Same here w OMM. Expressed interest in three offices and got callbacks at two of the three (so far, keeping me fingers crossed). Got the same line about all of them being independent of each other, which is annoying...
Worst interview question ever:
"So how do you think you'll deal with how boring the first 4 years of practicing law will be?"
-- Shartsis interiewer, who was not joking
Orrick SF just called to reject me...wouldn't a letter have sufficed?
Thelen SF +
Lewis Feinberg Lee + (by bulk email!?)
Lief Cabraeser sent letter, "still under consideration..."
dewey sv+
(notified by mail w/ no call, I thought for sure it was a ding and the actual callback was buried in the second paragraph... just goes to show that you should read those letters thoroughly)
Sedgwick -
(The funny thing is, I didn't even apply! They must punishing me for having canceled the interview: "you're gonna reject us, well fine we'll reject you too!")
Apparently the Sedgwick people went to Henry's at the end of the day, laid all the resumes out on the table, and talked about what a "disappointing crop" they had this year. (All within hearing distance of several students.) Classy move.
I think that's because most Boalt students wouldn't bid on a pissant little firm like Sedgwick (which I had never heard of before now).
Now that many of the call backs are in, I'm going to throw a conclusion out there and see what people have to say:
law review DOES make a really big difference.
[disclaimer: i am not on it]
if i could do it over, i may have actually given the 600+ pages a look.
thoughts?
Yeah, it matters, and not because it shows that you are smart, because frankly I don't believe it does (in fact, I think it is an immense waste of time, and this is coming from the 3Ls who actually did it) but because then if the firm hires you, you can post Law Review on your bio and everyone can think you are really fuckin special. But there are some employers out there (though not the top "rated" firms) who actually care that you are doing things that you are interested in rather than a bunch of busy work that you are only doing so you can get a job.
Actually this is true. I interviewed with one firm that didn't have my updated resume, and I mentioned that moot court and one of the journals wasn't on there. They really didn't care -- they wanted me to talk about what I was most passionate about, and I actually got a call back. Then again it wasn't Wachtell or Munger, but that whole thing isn't really for me anyway.
I got callbacks from all the selective SF firms I wanted (Latham, Gibson, Mofo, OMM, Orrick, Quinn) and had no law review. No one asked why I wasn't on it. I'm glad I didn't do it, but more power to the people who do it and like it.
However, I don't deny the prestige that LR confers, whether justifible or not. I guess we'll have to wait a few years and see if any doors are closed to me that wouldnt have been if I had tried to do it. Maybe clerking?
I too received callbacks from the selective firms I wanted (Skadden, etc). No law review. Never came up. It's important to have passions/interests/etc, but whether the interest is law review or elsewhere, it doesn't seem to matter very much. I have good grades, but not great (3 P's).
Skadden, LA+ (on a Saturday?)
Lets look at the law review comment from a different angle. Did anyone who IS on the journal have trouble securing callbacks/not do as well as they had hoped? I think that may be more the point- not that you can't succeed without it, but that it really makes things a lot easier despite what your grades, etc might be.
well this is completely anecdotal evidence (maybe we should start asking firms for stats a la 4:07 :P) ... but a friend of mine from last year was on law review and he had decent grades (top 50%) and barely got any callbacks, even from less selective places. i think he had trouble interviewing, but it just goes to show that no one is a shoe-in.
For more anecdotal data: I have a 3L friend who was not on law review, but had stellar grades and other journal experience, and got offers from every selective firm in the Bay area. Another 3L friend was on law review, but didn't have the grades, and got just 1 callback from OCIP. It seems like firms only care about the grades (at other schools, grades are usually tied in with who gets onto law review, unlike at Boalt).
As much as I enjoy the "ra ra let's compare our relative successes to each other because that's all I know to do" I have an administrative question.
While posting firms or other comments (e.g., ra ra...), can you let me know if you want this post moved up or not? I don't know where you guys stand in the process. My hunch is that it's too bulky and it's not that hard for you guys to scroll down a bit to find it. But I'm open to change.
Ok go back to the resume love fest.
"The Big R"
All of these call-backs and interviews are fine and dandy but what are we going to do when the economy's in a full-blown Recession right about the time we return our caps and wrinkled gowns? Are there more or less recession-proof practice areas/cities/firms? Is anyone out there thinking about this or am I the only one who thinks the sky may be falling?
Proskauer Rose NY-
Dow Lohnes DC -
I appreciate that I got a Dow Lohnes rejection before anyone put up an acceptance. Makes me feel good about myself. La di freakin' da.
Yes. Up. Move up.
Anyone have ideas for good callback questions to ask? I'm especially looking for polite ways to get at 1) how many hours do you actually work and 2) how likely is this office to lay off a bunch of people in the next downturn. People who have been through callbacks, were there any questions that elicted useful or surprising information?
I think one polite way of getting at the hours q is "describe a typical workday - if there is such a thing." I asked this of nearly every interviewer and most said "I leave the office by X time during slow weeks and Y time if we're in the middle of a trial." It will also give you a good sense of how varied the tasks you will be working on are.
Somone's probably already asked this...but what's the time lag like between going to a callback interview and hearing back offer/reject? I've heard of some people getting offers at the end of the interview, but this can't be the norm. What's the average time we should expect to wait?
Depends on the size of the firm. Large firms with larger summer classes normally notify within a week, if not sooner. Smaller firms (class size 3-5, say) wait and see more candidates, so it might be a couple of weeks before hearing back. Remember, at a call-back it is appropriate to ask the recruiting coordinator when you can expect to hear from the firm.
callback thank-you notes: email or snail mail? cdo gives mixed guidance.
So if I haven't heard back from a firm I interviewed with in the beginning of Phase I, should I assume I'm toast? I emailed the interviewer to thank him - contrary to CDO advice - and he never wrote back which seems to confirm this interpretation.
Non-OCIP question, but work related nonetheless: First day of work (post-graduation), should I wear a suit or go business-casual (like everyone else at work)? I'd like to make a good impression, but I don't want to be over-dressed for my first day of work.
Dude -- why are you asking us? We are still students, you have graduated! What do we know?
1. Definitely ask about the firm's fiscal outlook. Is it trying to grow rapidly? Is it being conservative so that it doesn't have to lay anybody off if the economy tanks? This is important.
2. Typical day is a BS question. Ask how assignments are assigned. How does the firm look to an associate who chooses to work from home for a day or two? How about an associate who has a personal policy of never checking his blackberry after 9 pm? Are you assigned to a single partner? Practice group? Department?
3. For on-campus interviews, thank you anything is a waste of time. Please read Disco Stu's OCIP Advice. For call backs, probably a waste of time, but if you really want to thank them for some reason, go ahead.
4. Ask about the timing to the person who sort of whisks you out. This tends to be the recruiter who will try to fish for information from you. It generally depends on the hiring committee's meeting. At least that's what they told me.
5. I don't know about a suit, but I still wear a tie for 3 or 4 days out of the week, even though we're business casual. There's nothing wrong with struttin' men's fashion. Also, please consider buying a copy of Dressing the Man.
9:11pm here. Funny that you think I'm a man. I'm a woman, actually, so wearing a tie or being called "dude" doesn't apply to me. :) I ask because the line b/w business casual and wearing a suit seems to be less subtle for a woman.
I ask because more than half of you probably have more experience in the work-force than I do (I went straight from undergrad to law school, now, to a job.)
one partner I worked for last summer in corporate insisted that new hires (as in not summer associates) should wear a suit on the first day, and be told by everyone to dress down in the future. he took it as a sign of respect. one lateral didnt, and the partner reamed him for it.
I say wear a pant suit- you cant go wrong with that. If you feel too formal, just take the coat off and suddenly you are business casual.
Totally wear a suit. Pants or skirt - either way, dress it down a bit w/ a sweater instead of a blouse... jacket's off, you're business casual; jacket's on, you're partner track! Like my old friend Bruce used to say: Dress for the job you want, not the job you have.
If no one else is wearing a suit, why would you? Especially if you've already summered at the firm in question.
The people wearing suits at a business casual law firm are (1) going to court that day, (2) meeting a client who expects a lawyer in a suit, or (3) interviewing for a job,
Callback question: I am double booking (that is to say, 2x callbacks per day) contrary to CDO advice because I can't spare multiple trips out, but this causes some problems with scheduling. I'm worried about my morning interviews running over. How should I go about asking firms politely to see me earlier? Should I mention that I have another interview in the afternoon?
double booking is a bad bad idea. First, you'll be exhausted after doing the morning interview and won't be at your best in the afternoon. Second, what kind of message are you sending to firm #1 by saying you've got to out of the door by a certain time? Third, if you cut it close, you're likely to get stressed out and that will affect your morning interview. Fourth, you'll have to prep for both the day before (when it sounds like you'll be interviewing as well).
Think about whether you really need to do all these callbacks. I never double booked and I was still exhausted when I had multiple call backs in a week.
I would cut class and fly out a few days earlier or stay after callback week instead of double booking.
I concur
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