2007 OCIP, Part Deux
If you guys have comments on the OCIP process from here out, please post them here. In other news, BLF is coming. Be ready.
Labels: OCIP/Employment
posted by McWho at 10:28 PM
Tuesday, October 16, 2007
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53 Comments:
I'm curious where people are in the process - going back to firms for more info? Decided already? Still interviewing?
Each person is different. But I remember taking extra time in deciding (I think I didn't make the call until the last day). I went back for repeat visits. I hate to put you guys under any more pressure, but this is a decision that affects the formative part of your legal career. You want to make sure you get it right...just like your decision to attend Berkeley Law.
Well, on that no-pressure note, do Armen or any grads have any thoughts on things they wish they had thought about or considered at this stage in the process, or experiences with non-big firm summers like plaintiffs' firms, union firms, or the public sector?
I've already accepted an offer.
I'm curious about these secondary meetings (post-offer dinners, etc.) What is the usual tone of such encounters, and what kinds of questions would you suggest asking?
I would be blunt (but not in an offensive way) and ask about the firm's financial outlook. There are firms that have been affected by the latest round of raises and by the sub-prime mortgage crash. I would try to talk to 1st or 2nd years and ask them how much work they have.
I have already accepted an offer but now want to consider splitting my summer between this firm and another firm (I have yet to pursue an opportunity with the second firm). Is it still possible to negotiate this option? Is it better to ask once I have a second offer?
I am a second year associate at a law firm doing post-offer dinners.
On all the dinners in which I've participated, we just tried to talk about non-law stuff. That's not to say that if you have further questions, you shouldn't ask them, but you needn't come prepared with any.
Think of it as a way to figure out if you like the people--after all, you'll be spending lots of time with them and if they really bug you, then perhaps it's not the right fit.
Some things to think about, from a semi-recent grad. Large firms with high profile Vault rankings and such seek to protect their rankings just like law schools. Once you have an offer, they are recruiting you. If you have questions, ask them. If you don't, don't feel like you're supposed to.
I take a different approach from Armen with regard to the weight of this decision. Few are the associates who stay with the firm they go to right out of law school. If you pick the wrong one you usually can move. However, certain early experiences might make later shifts in path easier. Also, summering in the firm in which you want to work is a serious bonus in terms of training and networking time.
If you are doing the firm thing for short term financial gains then I would look at bonus structure, benefits, and even how bar loans are calculated. If you think you want to clerk beforehand, ask about the clerkship bonus. If you want to make partner, ask not just about the timeline for doing so, but look at mentoring opportunities, evaluation processes and equity v. non-equity partner options. If you think you want to stay with a firm at least 4 years and you might want a family in the next 8, ask about family leave. Both men and women can and should ask about part-time, work/life balance benefits. If you want to litigate, ask partners how they got trial experience.
Don't spend your whole time worrying about whether or not you twirled your spaghetti properly during the fancy lunch. Look at the people you see during the interview (non-atty. staff included)--do they look as if they like what they are doing? More importantly, do you think you would like working with them?
Plenty of people go into firms from the DA's office and the DOJ. The same is true in the reverse. Clerkships will pay more after a year or two in a firm, but the incentive to apply once you are working is lower.
Some old-school plaintiff's firms will still sometimes pay out a generous bonus to everyone after a big win, regardless of whether or not you were on the trial team. But not all plaintiffs work is noble.
If you're interested in the public sector, pay attention to the shifts in government loan relief for public service going on right now. If you're relying on LRAP, inquire about what happens when you get married to an income-earning spouse.
If you are under 27 with no dependents and you don't have to take care of extended family financially, don't sweat this decision because you have more of a safety net than you can probably appreciate right now.
By attending a school like Boalt and investing in yourself and your education you've made yourself marketable for years to come, housing crisis or no. Go ahead, work for that presidential campaign or the legal aid office. Oh, but if you do--remember that not everyone at a firm is a money-grubbing sell-out. Guess who donates to all those NGOs...
And if you decide that your personal goals lead you to a firm, know that firms are more than anonymous-lawyer soul suckers. They are filled with bright people with diverse interests and lots of skill and experience to share. Basically, little 2Ls, you are in a great position. Go out and enjoy your choices.
If we've already accepted, are we expected to go to the firm's offer dinner anyway? (They invited me even though I already accepted)
Would it be bad not to go?
10:20: Can I come worth with you? Thanks for the reality check. You're totally right.
I've already accepted too, but my situation is a little different. I've been invited to several offer dinners from a couple of firms I have yet to officially reject, and I'm wondering whether it would be okay to attend. I think I may have accepted too early, and I'm now wondering whether I picked the right firm for me. Any thoughts on how to proceed?
So which firms are rumored to have post-offer dinners coming up? Or already had them?
11:35, It's very tacky to string along firms after you've already accepted an offer. Turn down your outstanding offers immediately, lest they continue to spend money, time, and resources trying to recruit someone who just isn't available.
If you fear you've made a mistake, you CAN change your mind. But this is even more tacky than the aforementioned stringing. Make up your mind quickly, as needless delay only makes things worse...
As a recent Berkeley Law Grad, I would say, if you have made up your mind that you are going to at an AM LAW 200 firm (i.e., a big firm), do not chose a firm because you think their attorneys work less then those at other firms. Every big law firm works about the same hours as every other big law firm in that particular market. This statement is assuming that you are choosing between reasonably comparable firms.
As one associate told me, if you work for Skadden, and the firm representing your client's adversary is MoFo, do you really think MoFo attorney's are going to put in less hours on the case becuase they work at MoFo. Of course not. Your working on the same case, and often times, your working for the same client. There are no lower expectations because your firm promotes itself as a "life style firm."
And remember, the hours you work as a summer are not always indicative of how it will be once you are an associate. I have multiple friends who are working crazy hours at firms that they thought were "different."
7:33: I'm not one to correct grammar, but holy geeze Batman! A Berkeley Grad?!
I think 7:33 is mistaken.
First, surveys indicate that lawyers at some firms do work more or less hours than lawyers at other firms. And I don't think that is solely a function of being in different markets from each other.
Second, there are a multitude of staffing arrangements out there. At some departments in some firms, you may be on a client team of 3 or 4 lawyers. At others, you'll be one of a number of associates who are working on pieces of a case or transaction for a partner. And some firms are simply staffed more leanly than others (both in number of attorneys and in numbers of administrative staff). 7:33's account that attorneys at MoFo will put in as many hours as attorneys at Skadden is, I think, simplistic.
Having said all that, I do agree to some extent with 7:33's basic point that all firms tend to converge on hours. However, I think there is a qualitative difference between the V10 firms, in which long hours seem absolutely unavoidable, and the rest of the AmLaw 200, in which long hours may or may not happen depending on the firm, the practice group, and how much work is coming into the firm.
Last point: Don't underestimate even small differences in hours. A lawyer lucky enough to work only 52 hours a week is going to have a lot less pressured life than a lawyer working 57 hours a week (a difference of 5 hours a week of free time...which is, say, all of Saturday afternoon).
10:20-
Thanks for the insight. It's definitely appreciated.
A slight caveat to 10:20. Clerkships aren't necessarily going to pay more after you've worked a few years now - they've recently limited salary matching for law clerks who have some legal experience. http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/09/law_clerk_salaries_and_benefit_2.php
In other news, I can't wait for BLF.
What is BLF?
Does anyone have a 2007 BarBri MPRE study guide that they'd be willing to sell?
11:02 (and presumed 1L),
"BLF"=BLF auction, and is a great party. It takes place in November. The main purpose is to raise money for the Phoenix Fellowship, but it's a blast.
Is it too late to ask for a split summer if I've already accepted, but said nothing about a split?
Has anyone heard back affirmatively from DOJ SLIP?
Though I hate to mention the juvenile site that led to one of our beloved classmate's downfall, folks on AutoAdmit.com claim to have heard from DOJ re: SLIP.
See here and here
Downfall? Has Trustafarian actually been expelled or is s/he still at Boalt?
Yes! We've managed to make this about trustafarian again!
Seriously, though, I am amazed that I still don't know who this person is.
come on now, it's far too early in the semester for a good old fashioned witchhunt... I vote for the first rainy Saturday night in December.
It isn't a "HUNT" until we hit 150 posts within 24 hours.
it's scary how quickly these posts are to each other. mine isn't helping.
anyone actually take the time to compare last year's facebook to this years?
Don't do it.
Getting back on topic, at least some DOJ SLIP components have requested writing samples and marked online profiles with 'finalist'. Hope that helps.
IL here.
I'd like to know how people with all/mostly Ps are fairing in OCIP this season. Are you marketable outside of SF/SV?
I got one H and didn't get an offer through the initial OCIP --- but I did get one from sending in materials after to firms I had missed. Now I have an offer both in PA and OC from top 100 firms. Totally doable, even though you work a bit harder at it. And they all pay 160.
Just don't expect to get invited to dinner the first days of OCIP.
I will also say that you are MORE marketable outside SF with P's than you are in the city. New York is particularly easy.
I would have thought NYC would have been harder given how competitive the market is.
NYC has some more competetive firms, to be sure (see, e.g., Cravath), but it's also a much larger legal market, so there are more jobs to go around. I think this is also true, to a lesser extent, in DC and the LA region.
Those three cities and Chi also aren't as saturated with applicants from Boalt, which might help a little, too.
agreed. if you've got all p's, NY is absolutely the best bet. they've got plenty of jobs for boalt students to go around. that's been my sense, at least.
To the 1L asking about all Ps:
It makes life harder, but all Ps is not a death sentence, especially if you have other pros like great social skills, significant work experience, technical degree ... But it's a little early to be worrying about this now, isn't it?
I think 8:42 is right on both counts. That said, I don't think it's unreasonable for 1Ls to start thinking about the effects of grades (note, think =! worry). While straight Ps surely won't kill you, they will realistically put you out of the running for some jobs, and make others more difficult to get. So it's something to think about when deciding how much effort you want to put into classes and exams, especially when people start telling you P = JD.
If you (1L) are thinking about a job track that might require more than straight Ps, and are worried (but why should you be? you haven't gotten any grades yet), start going to ASP and/or office hours. And if you don't know how grade-selective the job tracks you're interested in are, ask a 2L.
i think what the one-Ls are asking for is...a thread on professors/classes for spring 2008 :)
folks believe office hours have two primary purposes.
1) those who do not attend office hours believe they function to allow brown nosers more opportunities to pursue their craft. these people should go to hell, or directly to a law firm.
2) those who do attend find them very useful for myriad reasons. a) if you hate the crush at the end of the class to ask a question, and feel like a brownnoser doing it, office hours reduce these elements of chatting with a prof. b) if you are thinking about a writing requirement in a topic a prof might advise, talk about it. you're going to need an advisor, and doing an independent study can help the class rank. c) if you think you might want to clerk, showing up allows a prof to get to know you and assess your interpersonal and intellectual skills in a different setting than the classroom, and may lead to outstanding reference letters if your grade turns out well. remember that there's nothing worse than a HH in a class for which you don't know the prof, because it makes a letter useless for you professionally. my judge takes letters that say a person has a good sense of humor, a curious demeanor, and a pleasant personality far more seriously than a great transcript. this isn't just clerkships--public interest fellowships and government jobs also require reference letters. d) if you ever want a research assistant gig, getting to know profs is a sure-fire way to make it to the top of their list when they start thinking about RAs.
so: to the extent you feel like this list offers something useful to you, here's what to do. keep a running list of questions at the bottom of your notes. questions could be clarification of something a prof says in class, questions about a note case or the reading, observations you've made or connections you've drawn between topics. yes, you can often research your way around things without talking to a prof, but provided you're not asking REALLY stupid questions that make it seem you've failed to do your reading, this is a fine way to go and talk to a prof. every 3 or 4 weeks, pull a few questions and turn up at office hours. ask a few doctrine questions, inquire about their thoughts on writing requirements, etc. mention the world series, or a recent relevant supreme court case. do a little research on a prof and ask about their current research projects-- check their bios on the webpage, or look in westlaw to see what they have recently published. better yet, check ssrn to see what they are currently revising/trying to place in a law journal. the goal is to spend 10-15 minutes in a reasonably pleasant conversation, and for the prof to be left with the impression that you are relatively intelligent and well socialized.
P's are a death sentence for clerkships. For me at least, having 3 of them on my transcript was a death sentence. (and the rest included more HHs than Hs)
The reason Yoo has great reviews is that he is a great professor. Most people here don't agree with his views, but his classes are excellent - clear and comprehensive. He's also very approachable. Absolutely take him if you can, you won't regret it.
Ditto above comment re: Yoo. He's really a great prof despite what you think about his politics.
Any seasoned 3Ls/Alumni who wishes to chime in on the following, it would be much obliged: did your firm ask for 2L transcripts (either before, during at the end of your summer)?
oh gawd, 8:01. some of us don't go to office hours because we are lazy. save your self-righteousness for another more worthy cause than office hours.
Back to the OCIP topic... I'd like to share that "thank you" notes for call back interviews, while polite, did not appear to influence my offer rate whatsoever. Some places I did them, some places I didn't. And there was no correlation at all with offers. I felt best about writing them when I actually felt appreciative.
Ditto on 9:21, except that my offer rate is actually better for the firms where I didn't send thank-you notes. For next year's 2Ls - save your time, screw the thank-yous.
I just sent a semi-generic thank you email to the recruiter right after the callback.. but yeah, i agree, it doesn't seem to matter much. Can't hurt though.
Unless you write something stupid in the note, of course.
1:06--I was asked for my 2L transcript during my 2L summer.
And even when we interview laterals, we ask for transcripts.
Thank-yous did not matter at all for me; I actually stopped doing them towards the end and got more offers. Could have also been that I just got better at interviewing.
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