Zero Tolerance
Rumor has it that a certain K professor has instituted a zero tolerance policy as regards students coming late to class.
Rumor also has it that a certain N&B admin has instituted a zero tolerance policy as regards comparing those who characterize people who support the troops as war-mongers.
Seems like the left-wing Berkeley nuts have invaded the law school. Last time I checked, freedom of expression included the right to censor viewpoints in a privately maintained blog. As for a zero tolerance late-comer (or early-leaver policy), the Academic rules clearly state "In the absence of prior communication of a valid excuse to the instructor, an instructor may exclude a student from a class for which the student is unprepared."
Other people make the rules. Get used to it. We're all lawyers or lawyers-in-training. Perhaps, instead of whining anonymously, we could come up with logical, well-reasoned arguments for why we are upset. Judges don't accept anonymous briefs.
Rumor also has it that a certain N&B admin has instituted a zero tolerance policy as regards comparing those who characterize people who support the troops as war-mongers.
Seems like the left-wing Berkeley nuts have invaded the law school. Last time I checked, freedom of expression included the right to censor viewpoints in a privately maintained blog. As for a zero tolerance late-comer (or early-leaver policy), the Academic rules clearly state "In the absence of prior communication of a valid excuse to the instructor, an instructor may exclude a student from a class for which the student is unprepared."
Other people make the rules. Get used to it. We're all lawyers or lawyers-in-training. Perhaps, instead of whining anonymously, we could come up with logical, well-reasoned arguments for why we are upset. Judges don't accept anonymous briefs.
Labels: Classes/Professors
posted by Bekki at 5:00 PM
43 Comments:
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Dear God,
Thanks for mentioning how to fix that. It just goes to show how truly useless us English majors are when we have to deal with technology.
As of 5:20 when reading this post, it's somewhat amusing that the first two comments have been deleted in a post about censorship. I'm sure there's a good reason, but funny nonetheless.
Regarding censorship on this blog: I've only seen it used a couple times and I've felt it's been used either humorously or appropriately. I've never seen a post deleted if it was left by someone using their real name.
Regarding the prof's zero tolerance rule: don't worry 1Ls, next semester you'll get away with murder because the profs understand OCIP screws any chance of being to class on any regular basis, let alone on time.
you think censorship of posts that use the term "war monger" is appropriate?
Of course a privately administered blog can delete whatever it wants to for whatever reason it wants to. Blogger.com could delete this blog tomorrow, and in the absence of any contract obligations, nuts & boalts would have no recourse. That's fine. Of course, the fine administrators at nuts & boalts would also have the right to cry to high heaven, submit reports to consumerist.com, and try to get people to stop using blogger's hosting. Free speech works that way--you have the right to say what you want but you've got the responsibility for what you say.
But I *don't* think a zero tolerance policy for late comers to class is appropriate under any but extraordinary circumstances (i.e. a guest lecture by an honorary speaker). The simple fact is that people have got to go to the bathroom and to their lockers between classes. I don't know about you, but between my books for con law and evidence I almost have too much to carry and I'm a well built guy (kinda flabby, but I can still move around alright). Some people only have 10 minutes between when one class gets out and the next starts and sometimes classes go late. We're not paying the tuition that we're paying for our health. And I think that entitles us to some input on what the rules are.
Which prof??
Will,
I disagree. This class meets in the afternoon, not at 8:25/45. I won't say what time because there are two afternoon K classes. When you are dealing with judges/filing deadlines/statutes of limitations in your legal career, tardiness isn't going to get you very far. I don't think its unreasonable to expect adult college graduates to come on time.
And during OCIP is different, though many professors will ask that you not come at all if you need to arrive late or leave early.
As for the academic rule Bekki cited, how does showing up late count as being "unprepared"? When I think "unprepared," I am thinking of someone who gets called on and has to pass or something like that (like in Legally Blonde when Reese Witherspoon gets kicked out of civ pro). Maybe there is some other academic rule that allows the professor not to let in late-comers, but I'm not sure this is the one.
I would agree that it's unfair to have a zero tolerance policy like this b/c people might be late for many reasons (not enough time to use restroom, bus late, etc). Unfortuntately, though, that's life. We will all probably deal with someone like this at work one day, anyway.
8:18, I disagree. But let's for argument assume the policy is unreasonable (which for the record I do not believe). What is the reasonable response for the 1L's? Should they have rolled their eyes, sighed, and made do with the situation? Or should they have thrown a fit, written letters, signed petitions, and gotten Dean O involved?
yeah, which K prof? Is it 'white pants?'
And i think he finally posted those teaching evals. A loyal N&B reader no doubt.
Yes, it's white pants professor T
8:18 here. I am saying I think they should just deal with it. Acknowledge that it sucks, but then suck it up. Everyone has to do deal with something like that.
I do think it's a little unfair, but it's certainly not that big of deal in the grand scheme of things. Not sure exactly what's so disagreeable about that.
tj -
The first two posts were deleted because they were in relation to a technical problem with the post, which is now fixed. The poster asked that the comments be deleted.
8:59 here with apologies for 8:18. We do agree. The rule is not that big a deal. I thought you were suggesting the 1Ls' response was somehow reasonable or warranted.
For how much we PAY these professors, none of them should be able to deny a student to their classroom for coming late. Things happen--buses run late, emergency calls, etc. Provided that the student doesn't make a big disturbance, why not let them in? Sound like this prof has a little superiority complex problem...
We do agree, 8:59. I don't think any big response by the 1Ls is warranted, either.
--8:18
This guy needs to get over himself. Note to T: you're a prof, not a judge.
Also, there is a difference between enforcing a rule and just being plain rude to people. We're not five-year-olds and we shouldn't be treated as such.
true we shouldn't be treated as 5 year olds, but signing petitions isn't the way to go either. He's not that mean and that insane, he is trying to engage his students in a conversation. Going to his office for a one on one talk was by far the better approach.
By the way, i for one don't mind the if you're late don't come in policy. In my opinion, a certain venerated CivPro prof last semester should have enforced one too. I was more than a little annoyed at a certain someone who insisted on coming in 10 minutes late EVERY day.
I don't understand the comments about being treated like children. How hard is it to get to class on time, especially if the class in the afternoon?
You guys are adults, and part of being an adult is being responsible, which includes being on time to meetings, appointments, and class.
I would favor a case-by-case approach. If someone's bus is late and they are late to class one day, I think it is a bit much to exclude them... if someone is repeatedly late, perhaps it would make sense... maybe a 3 strikes rule would work...
If you don't want to be treated like a 5 year old then don't act like one by showing up to class late. This K professor has been teaching at Boalt for a couple years and this sounds like the first time he's instituted this policy, so maybe his class should think about that before they start complaining.
Or he could try HaLo's policy of having late students pay $1 every time they walk in late, then throwing a mimosas and bagels party at the end of the year review session with the funds. But it's not crazy for this K professor to be fed up with people who show up late.
The rationale I heard given was that these students were so traumatized by watching their peers be turned away at the door that they couldn't concentrate on the lecture. Hence letter writing, petition-getting and (apparently) the crying to Dean O.
Ha!
Newsflash, children: The world we live in is a bumpy place, and if that's all it takes to scramble brains to frizzling incompetence, I feel sorry for you, because you have got a long, hard road ahead. If anything, your professor did you a favor by popping out out of candyland for a moment or two.
Good luck practicing law. I hope I face you in court someday.
2:24, there's an alternative Boalt blog now...
So getting back to the late-comers issue, did the 1Ls actually write letters, sign petitions, and go "cry" to Dean O? Or are people just assuming that they did because they did something similar about the whole two-elective-in-the-spring thing? I'm really confused.
If they actually did this, then it seems like the 1Ls (or at least a fairly large number of them) really need to grow up. As other commenters pointed out, there will be plenty of things in life you can't be late for, regardless of how good your excuse is. Hell, other professors (HaLo, for one) have had similar policies for years and the other classes just dealt with it.
If, however, the 1Ls haven't actually started complaining to the administration about this, then why are we even discussing this at all? The 1Ls didn't do anything other than complain amongst themselves. The issue just got blown out of proportion because it was posted on this blog.
So, again, I am confused. Can someone clarify what actually happened before we start accusing the 1Ls of things they might not have done?
Crying to Dean O over this? Pathetic. "Those 1Ls" need to grow up.
I had HaLo and I always thought his solution was kind of brilliant (but the commenter above doesn't have it quite right): you could pay the $1 to the end-of-year party fund OR you were immediately on call (as in, he called on you as you were setting your bag down). It discouraged tardiness, which benefits everyone (as does the end-of-semester party), but it left students with three legitimate options: come on time, pay a de minimis fine, or speak up. It was devious but unarguably fair. The white-pants prof should do the same thing.
in the courtroom, showing up late is contempt of court; in law school, it's contempt of class. professionalism minimally encompasses showing up on time and meeting filing deadlines, etc. failure to do so is called "malpractice per se."
Not to change the subject, but does anyone know when the spring final exam schedule will be posted? I really need to know my exam schedule so I can tell my summer employer when I can start. Here's hoping that someone in charge of scheduling reads this...
I think not having to attend a class w/ Prof. White Pants would be an unexpected blessing. I'm not sure why I did bother to show up (on time) when I did have him last year. Does he still wear the lavender dress shirt half un-buttoned?
And minutes can cost millions in the real world. Just ask MoFo. http://www.abajournal.com/news/one_minute_delay_costs_mofo_1m_in_attorney_fees/
I don't see why people insist on conflating our schooling with our professional responsibilities once we are out of here. We all know that you can't be late to court, but guess what? Last time I checked, you couldn't eat in court, or surf the net in flip flops either. Do these classroom liberties make your guys' blood boil too? Many of us are in school in part because of the relatively relaxed environment. People are late sometimes...get over it.
As far as the incident in question, I wasn't there but it sounds like T has been particularly cold with latecomers lately...the person had actually emailed T beforehand to try to get into class and she was apparently barred pretty rudely. Maybe others can chime in since, again, I wasn't there.
I was there.
And the next day he stopped class to apologize and admit his mistake in front of over 100 people.
"I am sorry, what I did yesterday was based on a miscommunication, and I was wrong, and I apologize for it . . . " etc.
People seem to dislike the guy, but he deserves some major credit for that one. I suspect that most of the people who gripe about him wouldn't have had the stones to do what he did.
Wow, props to Prof T for admitting his mistake. So if that's the case, WHY are people discussing it then???
It's because people keep sending self righteous emails like this (names removed to protect the children):
Everyone,
This whole controversy over a late policy is paternalistic, demeaning,
belittling to the class and reflects poorly on Professor T's
professional conduct more than it does on those students being late to
class, and on Boalt Hall. I invite you in joining me in voicing our
concerns to the administration.
Boalt Hall is a professional school. We're all grown up individuals, with
B.A.'s (or more) that should be reasonable enough to self-select out of
attending if we're coming late without a legitimate excuse to a
professor’s class where that professor is bothered by a late attendance.
T's 10 minute - foyer policy is as disruptive as the tardy
appearances were. His previous zero tolerance policy is also just as
disruptive, if not more.
Moreover, any of these policies ridicule students that are late for
legitimate excuses.
The goal of all these policies is to prevent class disruptions. I don't
see how this can't be accomplished by only those with a legitimate excuse
for being late showing up, and those w/o a legitimate excuse simply
self-selecting out of attendance. More importantly, Professor T
should individually approach any individuals being late legitimately or
not, and not feel compelled to involve the rest of us that are simply
there to learn contracts.
T's new policy is not only disruptive to the learning experience; it
is also paternalistic and demeaning to Boalt Hall as a serious leading law
school and its students.
His policies have effectively disrupted the learning environment more than
a few infrequent late appearances by students could and more importantly,
made the whole experience of taking his contracts class a very
uncomfortably unpleasant one.
I have attended three universities in two different countries, and this is
the first time I've seen a class effectively treated as if we're back in
grade school by any sort of policy that seeks to modify student behaviour.
It honestly reflects very poorly on Professor T's professional
conduct and on this institution.
We're not paying almost $30,000 a year, with ever rising fees, and
attending this institution over others equally qualified to suffer this
sort of demeaning behaviour.
I invite any of you to joining me in voicing our concerns to the
administration. I personally intend to go knocking on their doors
tomorrow, and see what we can push for.
Respectfully,
....
Professor T's policy never bothered me. (Nor, for that matter, did people coming in late.)
What bothered me was the level of angst and animosity that followed that policy into the classroom each day. That, and the unofficial passive-aggressive let's see how many people we can get to leave during class to 'use the bathroom' response whenever Professor T didn't let someone come in late. Now that was disruptive.
I just want to learn. Really.
I've been in a couple of T's classes. And if there's one thing I've learned during these past years it's that this guy loves attention. LOVES attention, particularly if it involves controversy and drama. Specifically he loves imposing unusual and largely baseless and intrusive paternalistic policies with a 'devil may care' attitude and then attaching his tagline: 'don't go running to dean O on me' like a dare. He's a perennial narcissist. My advice to the school would be to get over it and get on with your lives.
Whether or not "those ILs" are acting inappropriately is not my concern. My concern is with those who assume that a professor should set the rules of the classroom. Why? This is not a sacred relationship, this is a relationship in which we students pay dearly for these classes. Why shouldn't the students play a large part in the setting of classroom rules?
The metaphor of the courtroom is convenient, but that doesn't make it apt. And if we choose the metaphor of the courtroom, why do we select the professor as the judge? Might we not see the professor as a barrister presenting his case to a critical audience? Perhaps a better metaphor is a lawyer serving her client. Would you treat a client poorly for showing up a few minutes late to a meeting? Or maybe we should dispense with metaphors altogether and say that this is a room full of people, none of which is entitled to dominate the other.
I'm always surprised at people's swiftness in defending the concentration of power in relationships, even in small ways.
Cite for the fact that judges don't accept anonymous briefs?
I think he doesn't wear white pants anymore.
No, he doesn't wear them. Instead the egomaniac signed them and then put them up for auction (BLF) one year.
He doesn't wear the white pants anymore, but they're now possessed by his not so secret admirer who thinks such a manly man can do no wrong.
who's the not so secret admirer?...
-out of the loop
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