Thursday, April 10, 2008

Looking Forward

**Invisible hand moving up, now that the topic has matured to relevance. Click here for fall course list. (HT to Matt, who found the list.)**


A helpful little bird shares via email that the registrar's office will make the fall 2008 class schedule available online this Friday, April 11.

I realize we do not yet know the details of the fall schedule, but because Tele-bears Phase I appointments are looming (mine, for example, is Monday the 25th*), it might be helpful to open a classes/professor/schedule thread now.

This 1L is considering Tax, Civ Pro II, Professional Responsibility, and something that satisfies that mysterious writing requirement.

For my part, I am enjoying Structural Issues with JY, and ALR with BB.  It is useful in the same vein as LRW.


*Correction -- Phase I Opens Monday. Like last semester, my actual position appears to be at the back of the line. Which relieves the burden of urgent decision making, at least for me -- like last semester I'll sign up for everything and wait to see which wait-lists I survive. 8:30 AM, here I come.

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Anonymous Anonymous said...

Would you be willing to clarify your appointment time, Patrick? Mine's not until Thursday the 24th and I want to know how badly I'm screwed.

4/07/2008 2:20 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Clarified, 2:20. See OP.

(and enjoy your place in front of me!)

4/07/2008 2:29 PM  
Blogger McWho said...

If you enjoy causing yourself huge amounts of agony, take tax with L@zerow. At 8:10.


4/07/2008 2:37 PM  
Blogger tj said...

I was thinking of taking tax in the fall. Is it really horrible? I feel like it's a good thing to have under the belt for a future corporate career. Not worth it anyway?

4/07/2008 2:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A lot of people might disagree, but I personally really enjoyed intro tax with Gamage. He's a nice guy, and I think his teaching style will be more effective in the future after all the complaints he got this year about the infamous "clicker questions."

I took income tax as a fallback when I couldn't get into other classes, and now am thinking I might go into tax law. So I guess that reveals my biases...

4/07/2008 2:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

with a crappy registration time, what are the chances of getting into the bigger classes, like Con Law and civ Pro II??

4/07/2008 3:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Last semester I had a crappy time and got into Con Law (but not the Ch*per one--although I count myself lucky--Am*nn was great) I didn't get into B*ndy's CivPro II before classes started, but I think if I'd gone the waitlist route, I probably would've gotten in eventually.

4/07/2008 3:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Last semester, B*ndy let the whole waitlist into CPII.

4/07/2008 3:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

welcome to always-back-of-the-pack registration hell, patrick. it's nice and comfortable here. hehe.

(but wait! that can't be right. the registrar promises telebear times are assigned randomly!)

4/07/2008 4:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kind of off topic, but I have a question.

The Class of 2008 class campaign website ( claims that "The Boalt Hall Alumni Association will match each student's gift."

What does this mean? Does the Boalt Hall Alumni Association just have money sitting around to match gifts with? What does it do with the money if it is not used to match student gifts? It seems like all money given to the Boalt Hall Alumni Association will be given to Boalt, regardless of whether it "matches" class campaign donations. Does that just mean that any donations given to specific clinics/journals will result in BHAA money being earmarked for those clinics/journals too (i.e., it is a zero-sum game for Boalt as a whole)?

4/07/2008 4:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and now, getting us back on topic:

what needs to be done to get the registrar to release the data that shows us that the 'random' registration times aren't so random in reality?

or better, why can't the policy be that the person with the most units register first, and that people with the same number of units are sorted randomly? then, at least, you could work your way out of the back of the pack...

4/07/2008 5:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've heard rumors about certain faculty members not being here in the Fall- Bundy, Vetter, Swift.


4/07/2008 6:24 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

I've heard the same about B*ndy.

And T*lley.

Notwithstanding the shrieks of criticism, Y*o probably WILL be here, since I was told he will oversee two faculty in a Cal Supreme Court seminar.

I was also told that Buxba*m will teach corporations.

4/07/2008 6:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

murphy is amazing for crim pro. it was the best class i have ever taken.
swift really is worth waiting for to take evidence.

4/07/2008 7:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

V*tter is apparently retiring, so he probably won't be teaching anything from now on.

4/07/2008 8:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Fact: Vetter does it better.

4/07/2008 11:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are those asterisks really necessary?

4/08/2008 12:15 AM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Asterisks are probably not necessary most of the time, but at times the discussion of individuals gets a little, uh, focused. And those conversations can turn sour rather quickly.

On one hand, so what? It's a student blog and these are professors. But on the other hand, I would prefer not to have my threads, and my real name, forever associated in a google search with the anonymous dismantling of someone's professional reputation.

That's why I would appreciate it if y'all continued to use the asterisks.

4/08/2008 8:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are you sure Phase I opens on 4/14? And if so, can someone explain why as a 2L I have a registration time on 4/24? When are most 2Ls' appointments?

4/08/2008 9:34 AM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Here is what the email said:

Dear Student:

It's time to start planning your classes for Fall 2008. Tele-BEARS
Phase I for the fall begins April 14 and ends July 15;
Phase II begins July 17 and ends August 17.

Your fall Tele-BEARS appointments are now available [blah, blah, blah] . . . "

4/08/2008 9:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Based on an informal poll of the people around me (all 2Ls), we have varying appointment times ranging from the 23rd to the 25th. Seems like you're in good company.

4/08/2008 9:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So I want to take some Con Law beyond Basic Issues, but not sure whether to go with First Amendment or Structural Issues. Any thoughts on which is better and which might be more useful on the bar exam?

4/08/2008 1:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you've taken Con Law I--Basic Issues, the Structural class is repetitive. Take the First Amendment--its useful on the bar exam, and for cocktail party banter.

4/08/2008 1:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Telebears starts on April 14th for the WHOLE UCB campus. I think the earliest law school times are 10 days later. I have no idea why. Maybe so the registrar/student services can let the professors drag their feet a bit more in getting the class schedule together?

4/08/2008 2:53 PM  
Blogger Learned Hand said...

I've gotta say, it's nice to give credit where credit is due. :-/

4/10/2008 12:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


4/10/2008 12:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Any thoughts on Henry Br*wn who is teaching Evidence? Really worth waiting for Swift?

4/10/2008 12:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

c'mon now N&B, that's pretty shady. Give LH his credit for discovering the secret course list.

4/10/2008 12:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Any thoughts on Accounting for Lawyers?

4/10/2008 1:04 PM  
Blogger tj said...

12:37 - I may be interpreting LH incorrectly, but even he admitted 3 comments above yours that he didn't deserve the credit. In fact, look at BLB's own post - it cites Matt's N&B comment.

There's a difference between splicing codes and standing on one's ear vs. simply finding the site that has all of the information.

But if it makes someone feel better, I'm glad you point out LH's contribution to the cause. Though I still feel like people need to chill a bit...

4/10/2008 1:05 PM  
Blogger tj said...

I second 1:04's question on Accounting for Lawyers.

I also would like to know a bit more about people's thoughts on the New Business Counseling Practicum. It requires Evidence, which I'd have to take concurrently. Given this semester appears STACKED with business law courses (for once) I'm wondering if it's worth it...

4/10/2008 1:07 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

I don't get it. Matt found the list. So he gets the prize.

Re. the OP:

1) I would like to second 12:29's question on evidence.

2) Can anyone compare G*mage to Professor R in Tax?

3) Who is going to teach CP II?

4/10/2008 1:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Accounting for lawyers is easy and informative for non-accounting types. Or so I have heard.

4/10/2008 1:12 PM  
Blogger Learned Hand said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

4/10/2008 1:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Berkeley Law Blog fanclub:

Seriously, stop. Please. If you're entire life is built on a need for credit and recognition, get out of Boalt. We don't want you here. Thanksbye.

4/10/2008 1:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


1. "You're" and "your" are different words. Learn the difference.

2. Speak for yourself. I read this blog, like it, and read BLB and like it as well. You might be taking some kind of imagined turf war a little too seriously.

4/10/2008 1:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wouldn't say I'm in a BLB fan club and in fact I read N&B more often. But their post about the class schedule WAS incredibly helpful. More helpful than Bekki's love affair with the fundamentalist Mormons or McWho plugging BOA.

It's understandable that you feel threatened that a new blog will take readers away from yours if you don't have the "Only Blog at Boalt That People Actually Know About and Read" status anymore. But calm down. We have RSS readers and it's easy to subscribe to both. I even drop by and read through the political circle jerks amongst the post-3Ls when I'm bored in class.

But, having said that, it's completely fair to be pissed that you took the neat thing they found and re-posted it on N&B as your own with no credit to them.

4/10/2008 1:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does the accounting for lawyers class really fulfill the writing requirement, or is that a mistake?

Also, any thoughts on Jesse Fried?

4/10/2008 1:48 PM  
Blogger tj said...

But has anyone taken Accounting for Lawyers? Is it truly a replacement for an intro to accounting course (from which Haas has blocked Boalt students)?

Also: Drafting Legal Documents. It's a P/NP class, but does the frequent writing assignments make up for it in number of hours worked (akin to a WOA / LRW)?

1:36 - that was a rather snarky response to a person who equally seeks an end to this "turf war" (as you call it).

This is the only blog I know that routinely has half of its comment sections hijacked with discussion of an alternate blog (as they would be summarily deleted). Nobody here is saying that you shouldn't go read BLB. My problem is that it distracts from the quality of our discussions here on this blog (just look at the last two blog posts). Can everyone please simply go check BLB when they want to read BLB? Leave the N&B comment sections to commenting on this blog.

1:43 - If everyone uses an RSS feed, what's the point to posting advertisements for BLB in our comment sections? It's easy for people to attack N&B for "not getting along," but I really dont see this treatment going the other way.

Can this discussion please end already? Back to Fall schedule / classes...

4/10/2008 1:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

TJ - you claim that the BLB comments distract from the quality of your blog, yet this post's value is derived entirely from what it stole off BLB.

Just give BLB credit next time, as an ethical blogger should, and you won't have these type of comments taking up half your blog.

4/10/2008 1:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Also, I should note that a great deal of the comments about BLB come from N&B bloggers themselves.


4/10/2008 1:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is the big deal with people discussing what they want to discuss in the discussion threads?

Frequently, when people want to discuss something that one of the handful of moderators hasn't started a thread about, they post an initial comment it in the most recent thread to get the discussion going. Then we can talk about it either THERE or in a separate thread that the comment prompts.

This is not a big deal. I come to this blog (and to BLB) to read about and discuss what ANY of the law students want to discuss. Not what a few law students and a half dozen ex-law students deem discussable.

Jeez, I'd hate to attend a cocktail party with these comment-control-freaks.

P.S. They're not offering admin law? TM?

Does anyone know if Yoo's structural issues is redundant with another basic con law class?

4/10/2008 1:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm going to second, or third, or whatever the question about the Evidence professor.

Another question is about Federal Courts. I hear a lot of hype about the class. Is it really that important to take?

Also, for 1:11: I am a fan of Professor R for tax. Clear lectures. Funny, too.

4/10/2008 3:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No admin?

4/10/2008 3:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re: Con law courses:

(a) Con Law Structure is partly redundant with Con Law Basic. Both cover the Commerce Clause (though only Structure addresses the Dormant Commerce Clause). Both do judicial review, but pick and choose around each other's cases in the Ch*per casebook. (Damn, those asterisks are silly.)

(b) First Amendment isn't being offered this semester, 1:15, so that makes your choices easier.

4/10/2008 4:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what about g*rmage for tax?

4/10/2008 4:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re: HB for evidence -

I was disappointed. He is a really nice guy, but the class discussion was often extremely tedious. The buzz in the past had been that he taught primarily from powerpoint presentations, which he appears to no longer do (but frankly would have been an improvement on our meandering class discussions). That being said, through studying for the exam, etc., I ended up learning the rules of evidence, which is all that matters. For students who want to, say, participate in a BOA Mock Trial team, fall evidence is essential. So, in other words: HB is really not a great evidence prof, but if you have to take it in the fall, it won't be a total loss. And you don't have to attend class if it's too boring for you.

4/10/2008 5:15 PM  
Blogger matt said...

Is there any reason to take Civ Pro II with TBA (seems that it would be a visiting professor, no?), or should I absolutely wait to take it with Bvndy?

4/10/2008 5:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

if you look at the pdf posted on the web it says that the Civ Pro II is being taught by Tr*stin Gr*en

If you google her, she is a Prof at Seton Hall...

4/10/2008 5:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I had g*mage for tax, and I liked him, but I may have been in the minority. he uses "clickers" which i actually found helped me pay attention. He is young, and thus a little bit defensive when you ask him questions, but he got better throughout the semester. I would recommend him in the end.

I too am upset that there is no admin. Is there any way to petition for core courses like that? kind of ruins my plans of externing for the last semester, since i need it before graduating.

4/10/2008 6:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what does it mean he used a clicker??

4/10/2008 6:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

6:34 PM,

I think if we can show the administration that there are enough people who WANT to take admin law, then perhaps we have a fighting chance. Not sure if there is a formalized process, but perhaps a flurry of emails to Shelanksi would suffice?

Otherwise, it's not as if they know there is a great deal of demand. Additionally, Shelanski might let us know whether there is def. no admin law being offered, or if they are still working on finding someone.

4/10/2008 7:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

G*mage used wireless clickers (like remote controls with buttons labeled A-E) and put multiple choice questions on his powerpoint slides and then made us answer them. The system kept track of how many we got right. Final grades were calculated:

1) If your clicker average was higher than your final exam grade, your clicker average would count for half of your grade.

2) If your clicker average was lower than your final exam grade, the clicker scores did not count.

The effect of this system is uncertain and depends on things like how well the average clicker grade is and how hard the final is (e.g., if the final is really hard and everyone does poorly, the person with the best clicker score will get the Am Jur).

I thought the clickers kept things interesting, but they also led to wasted class time when everyone wanted to argue that their clicker answers were correct based on ambiguities in the questions.

Overall, I was pleased with G*mage. He is interested in feedback and wants to be a good professor.

Prof. R notoriously gives tons of reading (both from statutes and the casebook). I would guess tax with him would be brutal.

4/10/2008 7:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Looking at TG's CV at Seton Hall, she was nominated for professor of the year. Not sure how much weight that carries, but a positive sign nonetheless.

4/10/2008 9:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone have thoughts on S*muelson for Copyright. Evals complaints seem to be heavy-reading and disorganization. Any thoughts? She has the clinic named after her--so maybe she's so amazing it balances out?

4/10/2008 9:18 PM  
Blogger tj said...

7:15 - Thanks for all that info.

Were the questions fairly straight forward for those who simply did the reading or would I end up "stressing" (remember I'd be a 3L so it's all relative) to review my reading, etc before each class?

4/10/2008 9:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

isn't there a better way to organize all this course info than just as comments to the blog? Someone with some web skills should start a database where people post their thoughts under profs names to aggregate it.

Just a suggestion.

4/10/2008 9:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

that's a great suggestion, hear hear

4/10/2008 10:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

yes, so great that someone suggests it every single time there is a thread on classes.

4/10/2008 10:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

it does make sense.

4/10/2008 10:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just bc something is repeated, doesn't make it less "great."

Perhaps less novel, but that doesn't go to the utility of having the comments divided by professor, versus the status quo.

4/10/2008 10:40 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

I've been hootin' and a hollerin' for something like UCLA's for years. You can't see too much without a login, but check out the top 10 lists. I mean that might have to come down in number at a small faculty like Boalt, but still. They use numerical rankings from 1-10 in various categories. But they also permit comments to add substantive thoughts. It was indispensable during undergrad. In law school, where faculty interaction can take on greater importance, it's really sad that we don't have anything comparable.

Anyway, I've gone back and added a new label for posts that discuss courses. Feel free to have a read.

4/10/2008 11:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

other schools don't require a log-in


It doesn't seem (though I have no idea really) that difficult to set up.......

4/10/2008 11:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I had G*mage for tax last year, and I have to say that the people who have posted about liking him pretty well seem to be in the minority. Last semester it seemed that the common consensus (and I agreed) was not good.

First, he hardly ever lectures. The whole class usually consists of the above-mentioned "clicker" questions. Half of the time, he would admit that his clicker questions were confusing or that there was more than one right answer, and this after 10 minutes had passed while different people in the class argued about their answer being correct or the question being unclear.

Also, I would be surprised if his class changed much this next semester from last, particularly because people actually made suggestions last semester (e.g., requesting that he lecture more about difficult topics), and he (often somewhat shortly) dismissed these suggestions. An earlier comment was right to mention his defensiveness when questioned.

Nothing against him personally, as he seemed like a nice enough person, but I didn't care for his teaching style.

4/10/2008 11:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This blog is engaging in monopoly maintenance: monopoly power (check), and exclusionary conduct (stealing BLB's discovery and pawning it off as its own - check).

Compete on the merits, Patrick. You want people to come here because you're offering the best product, not because you've been stealing others' work.

You should be ashamed.

4/11/2008 12:02 AM  
Blogger tj said...

Haha 12:02. Sounds like someone needs to pay better attention to Sh*lanski. In his honor, consider yourself "summarily reversed, without need for comment."

And to tie my comment to the actual content of this thread: Sh*lanski is by far the best prof I've ever had (with maybe B*ndy as a close second, if only because I found his topic of CPII inherently boring). Take Sh*lanski (and B*ndy if you can) before graduating Boalt.

4/11/2008 12:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

12:02, do you even know patrick? It doesn't sound like it.

4/11/2008 1:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

evidence: wait for swift for 2 reasons. 1) she is great 2) evidence is hard, and if you take it right before the bar, you don't have to study that topic except a quick review. the bar was actually EASY on evidence because of her course.
fed courts: if you think you want to clerk, you really should take it. threshold issues of standing, mootness, ripeness, that you NEED to know as a clerk are only dealt with in that class.

4/11/2008 7:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

G*mage's clicker questions were sometimes really easy (if you had any idea how taxes work, you would get them right), and sometimes they were impossible (even if you did the reading carefully, you would still get them wrong because they were tricky, ambiguous, or unfair). If you want to get 100% right, you will stress out. If you want to get 90% right, you will have to do the reading somewhat carefully. If you don't do the reading, you won't do very well on the clicker questions.

On the other hand, if you plan to study hard for the final, the clicker questions don't matter (so long as you do better on the final than on the clicker questions).

4/11/2008 8:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is it wise to take fed courts and cp II concurrently, or will I be at a major disadvantage?

4/11/2008 8:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

any opinions on b*xbaum for corporations. His reviews look AWFUL.

4/11/2008 9:04 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I second the request for for info on B*xbaum

4/11/2008 9:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ummm I really hope Patrick's in my Antitrust class. he sounds like a grade A moron.

4/11/2008 9:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

edit: meant to say "TJ" not "Patrick."

4/11/2008 9:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Agree with 9:19. A moron with no sense of humor.

And agree on the point that this blog should attract its readers through original blogging, not by stealing ideas from other blogs (and not attributing it to them).

4/11/2008 9:33 AM  
Blogger Armen said...

I hate to be the peddler of rumors, but I can't resist. I love Buxie. I mean if there ever was a cuddly prof, it's him. His voice is also a dead ringer for that of George Plimpton (host of the Spellympics, the guy who offers Lisa a full-ride to her choice of the Seven Sisters colleges). But a certain red-head prof told me to avoid Buxie for corps at all costs. Take that for what it's worth.

I think CPII before fed courts is pretty important. It's already a difficult course, why make it harder by not taking CPII first?

4/11/2008 9:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I took CPII and fed courts concurrently, and did well in both. They deal with different types of jurisdictional issues. While it was a little tricky to keep the topics separated at first, I think that I ultimately benefitted from simultaneously taking two classes that dealt with related issues.

4/11/2008 9:44 AM  
Blogger tj said...

Definitely questionably intelligent. Definitely not all that funny (I'll stick to throwing topics out there and leaving the content to y'all). And definitely in your Antitrust class.

But definitely smart enough not to get in a pissing contest with anonymous slingers.

Back to the topic at hand:

I've also had friends that took CPII and Fed Cts concurrently and did great in both. I didn't hear any complaints.

Re "Buxie": Paying attention is a huge chore (the tone of his voice makes it easy to tune out). He likes to randomly cold call on people and may stick with them through his thought experiments that lead nowhere. But I agree that he's really nice (and dare I say "cuddly") otherwise.

4/11/2008 10:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have B*xbaum for Corps II and he is terrible! He's clearly a genius, but his lectures are scattered and many times incomprehensible. While he many be different for Corps I, I warn you to proceed with caution.

4/11/2008 10:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What about Samu@lson as a prof- the IP scholarship seminar? Has anyone taken either the class or professor?

4/11/2008 11:02 AM  
Blogger MRP said...

I recommend tax with Rak (although I took it with someone else). I've taken two classes with him and while there is a lot of reading, he has a dry wit and is very straight forward in his teaching. Most people I knew in Gam*ge's class spent the whole time on IM complaining about him.

I also recommend J Fri*d's corporate finance and bankruptcy. He is very upfront that he will only test the information he puts on his powerpoint slides, and that the casebook does not add much value. Basically, you don't really have to read. You learn a little finance, a little economics, a little about corporations, and a lot about bankruptcy. He also has a great dry sense of humor.

4/11/2008 12:31 PM  
Blogger Abony Holmes said...

Hey N&Bers,

I just started this: In an effort to organize comments about professors and classes. Anyone who wants to be added as a blog author please let me know. And all are welcome to visit and continue this discussion there.

4/11/2008 2:19 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

Abony, would you mind shooting me a quick e-mail?

4/11/2008 2:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would say that Fed Cts is important not just for clerking, but if you want to do anything Admin related as well. Standing, ripeness, and mootness come up all the time in admin cases, and the Admin class has so much to cover that it's nice to get it a bit more in depth in Fed Cts. Plus Fl*tcher is a treasure as a human and professor.

4/11/2008 2:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Someone said something about admin not being offered in the fall. I'm sure that AJO (or perhaps KB) will teach at least one section in spring. AJO just had a baby, so suspect that is the only reason for the class not being scheduled this fall. She's great too, or at least I think so.

By the way, not writing out the names of profs is stupid. It's a public blog and I think that makes it okay to use full names of profs. (They are publicly identified people on the boalt website.)

4/11/2008 3:04 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

3:04, you're right, but that's not the complete picture. I hate the *, but I also actively encourage commenters to continue to self-censor.

The reason is simple professional courtesy. These professors often move to other schools, some have side gigs, and all are lawyers. A comment that says [so and so is an a-hole] can easily ruin professional reputations while not adding anything of value to the rest of us.

See this thread where co-blogger Mad JD is taken to task for his comment about a former Boalt prof. I nearly had a heart attack when the 9th Cir. posted a certain Fed Court's prof's quotes on its intranet. It's just easier to avoid it all "through the clever use of flags." I mean asterisks.

So, yeah, legally we could probably write what we think of all the professors. But, you know, sometimes it's nice to go above and beyond the legal minimum.

4/11/2008 3:19 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

Now, now, play nice.

4/11/2008 5:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Armen just deleted a threat pointing out his hypocrisy in letting other bloggers advertise their blogs here but not BLB.

4/11/2008 5:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

edit: should read "thread" not "threat" (though I really meant to say "post")

4/11/2008 5:37 PM  
Blogger Justitia said...

I saw that too. Heh. And people wonder why we don't want to blog here...

4/11/2008 5:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Armen, this is lame. If people were going to thrash profs, they'd do it now, while were in the practice of using asterisks. There's currently little fear that any will actually find themselves on these posts with a google search. So why would commenters suddenly let loose when using their actual names?

More importantly, if you're looking for info on a certain prof on this very blog (for example), it's pretty much impossible to have that search result in anything useful...or anything at all.

4/11/2008 5:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You know, it's really not that difficult to run a law blog. Somehow N&B managed to screw it up.

4/11/2008 5:51 PM  
Blogger tj said...

5:39 - I agree 100%. This method of doing class/prof reviews is FAR from ideal. We really need a legit password-protected non-google searchable forum that is separate from the reaches of the administration's watchful eye to conduct these threads. I've heard rumblings about some people trying to get one going, and I honestly hope they are successful. Judged against this criteria, I'm thinking the blog posted above isn't a final solution (although I applaud the effort, as it's moving in the right direction).

5:37 - To say that Armen is a hypocrite for "letting other bloggers advertise their blogs here but not BLB" is silly. There's a clear difference between the topical launch of a blog seeking to provide a clear need (although I still feel it falls short of its goals) and the repeated schilling of unrelated BLB posts amongst our comment sections. Remember, it's not hard to delete comments and yet we, as a general rule, do not.

Justitia: it takes a lot for a comment to be removed from N&B (with this post serving as clear evidence, as it includes everything from anonymous personal attacks upon me to prolonged whining about another blog's due credit).

I'm not sure you'd be happy with anything short of a complete lack of censorship. Am I wrong?

If I'm right, I encourage you to move along and try out Autoadmit. Maybe there you'll find sympathy among your other trash-slinging friends. I don't think Armen nor anyone else here at N&B should be faulted for at least an attempt to provide a productive forum for intellectual debate.

[As an aside: For some reason the last couple days have been off-the-chart crazy among the comment sections here at N&B. I hope everyone has a good weekend and comes back happier and refreshed. Maybe then we'll all start acting again as if we're the type of students Boalt pretends to produce.]

4/11/2008 6:16 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

Actually I deleted the comment because it included a personal insult. Oh you forgot to repeat that part. How convenient.

You also forgot that your insulting comments about those who wear the uniforms were the reason why BLB was started. You disliked my insistence on civility and a modicum of grounding in reality and started a separate blog (or at least someone else started a separate blog that you prefer). Good for you.

But that wasn't enough, you have to spam REPEATEDLY, after being warned not.

That's not enough either. You resort to personal insults against me and TJ.

To put things in perspective, I have never rejected a request to add to the blogroll. I've never rejected a request to either guest-blog or join as a co-blogger. I even separated the Berkeley related blogs to generate more traffic for them back in the day.

Let me offer you this. Post your real name, and I'll let you comment however you'd like, and about whatever blog pleases you. In return though, I get to write things about you using your name. Sound fair? Great.

By the way, it sounds like you need a hug or something. This kind of morbid fascination with your own sense of self-worth and the unhealthy need for affirmation isn't normal. Seek help. Or take the happy pills.

4/11/2008 6:29 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

Oh and Abony posting her valiant effort to create a centralized professor rating site is umm ON TOPIC. Nitwit.

4/11/2008 6:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Armen: it sounds like you need a life!

4/11/2008 6:32 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

I need a bourbon.

4/11/2008 6:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All of the attempts to keep the discussions "on topic" and whining about the "quality of discussions" being undermined by "shilling" is stupid.

If it's not clear, most people visit the blog to read the comments. Most posts aren't content but "hey, it's the time of year when we talk about ______." Sometimes I check the comment section on the boring posts in the HOPES that somebody will say something off-topic and interesting.

The thing that keeps this blog popular is everyone knows it's where everyone goes for online discussions. Deleting comments, in general (I don't know what was deleted this time.) is very sketchy. It's actually very third grade. Like, "If you don't do what I like, I'll take my blog and go home."

Which, you know, wouldn't really have a very deleterious effect on the online conversation. We'd all just start leaving our comments on the other unmentionable blog or whatever else started up.

4/11/2008 6:47 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

6:47, I agree with every thing you say. That's the only that can explain of this many years of taking crap from those hiding behind internet anonymity. But the value of anonymous comments doesn't trump the fact that I now have my professional reputation attached to this blog. If you want to tell me that your right to write whatever you want here should trump my career, I'd definitely be interested in hearing that argument.

And to clarify, he called me a DB. Except he wrote it out. And that's after he insulted TJ. I dare anyone to try to pull that crap at any other blawg worth a damn. Good luck calling Volokh a DB.

4/11/2008 7:02 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

*That's the only thing that can explain this many years...

4/11/2008 7:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This kind of morbid fascination with your own sense of self-worth and the unhealthy need for affirmation isn't normal.

o...m...g... irony?

4/11/2008 7:08 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

7:08, for example, is a great example of why I love the comments here. I choked laughing. :D

4/11/2008 7:10 PM  
Blogger tj said...

I was also the recipient? Good to know. And I was figuring twice in the same day was bad.

Not sure who it is among my classmates that finds it a good use of their Friday to sit at home and sling *anonymous* personal insults at those who don't post anonymously. The sad thing is that there's at least 3 of you now (assuming it's not all the same person pretending to be multiple people). Again, sad.

Doesn't anyone have any interest in the topic at hand?

How about I try again: Anyone know anything about the Commercial Trans class (TH 6:20-9)?

4/11/2008 7:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Speaking of comments, you know what would be great? If someone used their admin privileges to set up that Blogger hack that alerts readers what posts have new comments since their last visit. I think it's called like "peek-a-boo comments" or something. Patrick! I'm looking at you as the one who seems to implement things. Can you get to implementing? Should just require a little copying and pasting, right?

4/11/2008 7:16 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

The hack alerts readers of the blog when new comments have been added?

How? (What would the user see that would tip them off?)

I'll look into it, unless the other admin objects.

4/11/2008 7:20 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

TJ -- I was referring to the earlier posts. So, you're still batting 2.000 IPD.

Patrick, no objections.

4/11/2008 7:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it involves a cookie or something on someone's computer. And there's like a sidebar that says what has new comments or something like that...

4/11/2008 7:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some blogs have a way for you to subscribe to an RSF feed of just comments--although I don't know if blogger supports that.

4/11/2008 7:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd like to defend the (very minor) censorship of comments on here. As someone above (I think it was TJ) pointed out, it's what keeps this blog from becoming like AutoAdmit. It's true that most students here would never personally attack a classmate in the same ways that the autoadmit posters have done in the past (see the lawsuit about the girls from Yale and their classmates), but it could happen. And the fact that some commenters already do personally insult the bloggers proves this. It isn't fair to have one's reputation associated with some comments on a blog, even if that reputation is only your rep at school (though many firms do google searches for students they're interviewing). Anyway, that's just my two cents on the issue.

4/11/2008 7:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

How about the posts Armen censored in the thread about the US Marine Resolution/Berkeley City Council Meeting? Those were deleted merely because they referred to the pro-war individuals as "war mongers."

Censoring posts that out people is one thing. Censoring posts because you don't like the message they convey is another.

This board's refusal to allow the posting of full names of professors is an example of its misguided censorship policies. In another thread, for example, TJ uses an asterisk in Edley's name when posting a quote that he gave to the media. I mean, seriously -- first, he's the dean of a major law school. Second, if he's giving the quote to the media, I'm pretty sure it's kosher to use his name.

4/11/2008 8:04 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Here is my take on the * thing:

It's respectful, harmless, and considerate. So, why not?

4/11/2008 8:09 PM  
Blogger tj said...

I second Patrick: I do it out of courtesy and because it's easy. I also try to avoid using names altogether - especially when dealing with classmates (see the football/disability post a couple weeks back).

Although I'm not a hard @$$ in holding others to the same standard, I encourage it because I think it's just good practice.

And to the "war mongers" censorship: (1) I think you downplay the censored comment; (2) I think the point the censored commenter made (in a vile and tactless way) was well represented on the board and thus Armen was NOT censoring people because he was disagreeing with them; and (3) I think you would be hard pressed to find another example of questionable censorship (and given the number of comments on N&B, that's really saying something).

4/11/2008 8:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Best reason to not to use asterisks was given above. It makes it impossible to search for the name of a professor. Also, I'm pretty sure even a blog search for say "gamage tax boalt" wouldn't bring up a comment on this post. Don't think Blog Search is there yet. Although it will certainly get there. But then it will likely also get to where a letter replaced by an asterisk won't fool it either.

4/11/2008 9:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does anyone know why the administration didn't publish the tentative list of Spring courses? It would be very helpful to plan.

Any other comments about Accounting for Lawyers? For a non-econ person like myself, would it be a helpful class?

By the way, this class that Spam-Burger is teaching, Corporate Compliance, fulfills the PR requirement.

Oh, all you anti-N&B people make me sad. This is not the public school system or state government. You have a great option for your unhappiness - read some other blog. Geez.

4/11/2008 9:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Boy Armen, you sure have them well trained!

In all seriousness, Armen, you're the one making yourself look bad on this blog.

4/11/2008 9:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, I was thinking that too, 9:24. I mean, I don't know the guy, but I was surprised he'd delete an insulting comment to protect his image. Because it just doesn't SEEM like he's trying to paint himself as likable. He's generally just kind of bitter and negative about everything. I just figured that was his online identity and he embraced it.

4/11/2008 9:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some thoughts:

1. Armen's comment implies that if the anon mudslinger had called him a DB rather than spelling it out, he would have left it. So get over the idea that he's so sensitive of his own reputation.

2. How many people with Armen's name do you think there are? If your name is Joe Smith your google search results are going to be a lot less interesting than if your name is less common.

3. The thing I've never understood about the comments from people who don't like how Armen and the other bloggers run the site is that N&B doesn't owe you anything. If you don't like it, you can start a new blog. Obviously. N&B doesn't owe BLB a readership. N&B doesn't owe the Boalt community insightful, meaningful posts. N&B doesn't owe random people w/o the guts to sign their name a place to insult people who do have that courage. If people don't like reading N&B or how Armen censors people who won't play by his rules, they are free to go to BLB or xoxo and play in that sandbox. You don't pay to read this, and no one is forcing you to do so.

4. I think "Junior Status" should read "Active Status" if you're trying to follow judicial nomenclature.

4/11/2008 11:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

11:28: So if you don't something you should just shut up or put up? There's no place for comment and criticism?

Are you one of those people who tell people who criticize the US gov't to just leave if they don't like it?

4/12/2008 12:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

EDIT: Should say "So if you don't LIKE something.."

4/12/2008 12:39 AM  
Blogger Patrick said...

11:28, how reasonable! You must feel crazy sometimes.

Regarding point (4) -- good call. Thanks.

4/12/2008 6:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree with 11:28. And I'm tired of all the hate on this blog. This isn't a public forum. This is a blog that a few people put the effort into maintaining. If you don't like go somewhere else. It's a big Internet after all.

4/12/2008 12:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

12:38, way to compare the federal gov't to a blog run by some classmates (current and former). one is supposed to serve us and be responsive to us, the other is just a nice thing some people do to facilitate communication. but otherwise, yeah, exactly the same.

but back on is c*ron for international law? what is his teaching style (lecture, cold call, etc)? thanks.

4/12/2008 2:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bla bla bla.

4/12/2008 3:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

C*ron is not so good. He rambles on and on about whatever comes into his head that day, presumes his students have prior knowledge of international law, and is incredibly lazy about writing exams (so much so, that he re-gave an old exam that was already on reserve in the library, complete with model answer).

Anyhow, if you're an I-law fanboy, I understand that he has excellent connections with various international judicial bodies, and it might be wise to take his class just to get on his good side.

4/12/2008 4:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

4:13 is right about C*ron being a very helpful connection for I-law folks.

4/12/2008 10:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I applaud Abony's efforts to get a professor review blog going!

Back to the subject at hand. I know that Sh*lanski is supposed to be the best for Antitrust but what about Edl*n?

4/13/2008 7:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And continue bringing this topic back to the subject at hand...

Is Securities Regulation a near necessity for a student going into transactional law?

How is Employee Benefits with G**dlaw?

And, any insight on Legal Pro vs. Avoiding Club Fed vs. Corporate Compliance to get my professional responsibility requirement out of the way?

4/13/2008 8:41 AM  
Blogger tj said...

8:41 - I've been told (during OCIP by attorneys when I've asked) that there are only three classes a transactional lawyer NEEDS to take: corporations, securities regulation, and tax.

Some finance/accounting background is good as well. The advice hasn't been Boalt-specific, so I'm not sure that the Accounting for Lawyers will do the job.

4/13/2008 10:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Avoiding Club Fed" = do not take.

He says the first day it won't prepare you for the MRPE at all. This is true. I thought that was the point of the ethics requirement. An upside is that it meets for only the middle five weeks of the semester. Although that also makes it hard to drop the class once you realize what it is.

It's just him yammering on about his thoughts about various scandals for two hours, three days a week. This is interspersed with occasional comments that arguably fall somewhere between narrow-minded and racist/sexist.

Besides the only-meets-for-five-weeks thing, another plus is extremely light reading that you don't have to do anyway because he's happy talking the whole two hours.

4/13/2008 11:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Take Ste*le's Legal Profession. It's a great class-- you'll talk a lot about the rules (which I assume is helpful for the MPRE, but I am lazy and haven't taken it yet), current events, large firm practice, etc. He also brings in outside speakers for those who are more public-interest oriented (and the speakers are actually good). The reading load is very light, and I don't think he ever made us stay for the full 3 hours.

Great class.

4/13/2008 11:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

so it seems corporations II is a prereq for securities law, but it can be waived... would it be a bad idea to take securities law without corp II?

4/13/2008 12:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ste*le's Legal Profession class is a great way to add three units to your transcript without stressing yourself. It would be perfect to go along with OCIP (or a lazy 3L year). The class is entertaining, it prepares you for the MPRE, the reading is light and interesting, and the class becomes even lighter as finals approach. I wish I could take it every semester.

4/13/2008 12:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I, too, wish I could take Ste*le's class every semester. He's awesome, and it would be nice to get a refresher on those rules that will govern my career...

anywho, does anyone know anything about k*sel, who teaches commercial transactions--article 2?

4/13/2008 12:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Any thoughts on Merges for Patent? He obviously wrote the textbook and all but I was wondering if the reading is insane. And someone told me the take-home took the whole 24 hours. Could this be possible?

4/13/2008 1:12 PM  
Blogger tj said...

12:05 - I didn't know that there were any prereqs for securities regulation. I took it without even having Corps I, and I can't imagine I was at any disadvantage. It's a lot like learning the model rules in ethics class or civil procedure - you just learn them and apply them to the fact pattern.

But your use of the term "securities law" makes me wonder if you mean securities litigation. I'm not sure about that class.

4/13/2008 1:25 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I took patent law with M*rges. It was a good class. The reading was not bad at all - maybe 20 pages per class. Also, a lot of the cases were covered in intro to IP, but M*rges discussed them in greater detail. I felt like a lot of things went over my head in intro to IP and Patent Law helped me put all of the pieces together.

That being said, the final was very difficult. Probably the most difficult exam I've taken in law school. It took me a good portion of the 24 hours. But the class is graded on a curve, so it doesn't really matter how hard it is from a granding standpoint.

4/13/2008 1:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Samuelson for Copyright is great--the class is very interactive (but not in a cold-calling way) & talks a lot about current copyright issues as well.

Merges' patent law class is great & he's a great professor. I think when I took it there were about 6-10 pages of reading/class (we had class 2x a week).

Yes, the final will take you nearly the entire 24 hours. But if you plan on doing patent prosecution or litigation, there's nothing like that final for preparing you for what you will be doing as an attorney.

4/13/2008 2:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

M#rges for patent: the class is way detailed. Rarely starts on time and almost always goes over. Brilliant man but organization needs a little work.

4/13/2008 2:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

does g*mage cold call people in tax? is that why people hated the class, or was it just the issues with the clickers?

4/13/2008 3:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

G*mage doesn't cold call. I think the focus on the clicker questions was the main problem. Students were frustrated that G*mage didn't want to lecture prior to the asking the clicker questions because doing so would give away the answers. Then after the questions, a long time would be wasted arguing about which answer choices should get credit for grading choices.

4/13/2008 4:39 PM  
Blogger Patrick said...

Matt and Abony have put in an entire sunny weekend getting the Boalt Professor Review blog up and running.

It is pretty flippin' cool of them (both 1L's) to take on what is likely to turn into a three year commitment, for no compensation, fame, glory, or honor.

Because I am a strong supporter of their effort and the spirit of the project, I am going to close comments on this thread and politely direct traffic to their blog. If for some reason you have strong objections to that (it is "censorship" after all!), you may feel free email me (there is an address in my profile).

Cheers, and kudos to Matt and Abony!

4/13/2008 6:14 PM  

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