Official Bar Freak Out Thread
I guess it's officially starting -- that time in every law student's life when he or she melts down psychologically as the bar impends. In such times of trouble, Boalt students have for generations turned to the elders of the Nuts & Boalts community for soothing assurances and not-a-little-bit of derision.
A commenter below trying to hijack my Calabresi rant posted some questions that appear as good as any, so I'll repeat them.
1) Is it normal to never feel prepared?
2) Were there any essays on the actual exam that you had no clue about, and and how did you tackle those questions? Did you pass?
3) How much did you memorize the elements of each concept? Did you recite the BarBri answer, or put it in your own words?
4) People who didn't pass: any clue why?
I suspect the answers to those questions will be more ameliorative than informative, but maybe that's what we need.
Personally, as someone suffering right there with you, I've grown to favor the late Milton Berle's advice on the bar exam: "Remember, you don't need to pull it all out. Just enough to pass."
A commenter below trying to hijack my Calabresi rant posted some questions that appear as good as any, so I'll repeat them.
1) Is it normal to never feel prepared?
2) Were there any essays on the actual exam that you had no clue about, and and how did you tackle those questions? Did you pass?
3) How much did you memorize the elements of each concept? Did you recite the BarBri answer, or put it in your own words?
4) People who didn't pass: any clue why?
I suspect the answers to those questions will be more ameliorative than informative, but maybe that's what we need.
Personally, as someone suffering right there with you, I've grown to favor the late Milton Berle's advice on the bar exam: "Remember, you don't need to pull it all out. Just enough to pass."
Labels: Bar Exams
posted by Earl Warren at 10:54 AM
70 Comments:
re #1: Is it normal to never feel prepared?
I hope not. And if you DID feel prepared, I strongly suggest keeping it to yourself.
You mean you hope SO, right DZ?
So what *happened* with class of '07, anyway?
I know, I know. An 82 percent pass rate is only three to five points off "normal." That equates to about six to 10 people. Bla bla bla.
The point is that nearly *20 percent* of the class of 07 failed the California bar exam. No matter how you look at it, that's a shit-ton of people failing. That's the highest in a decade and - my guess -- ever.
In addition to completely freaking out the class of 08, it raises an interesting question: trend or blip?
Was there some general lack of prepration for the class? A general sense that they didn’t have to worry about it? Too many people who listened too much to those people who say. . "don't WORRY, almost everyone from Boalt passes."
I was deathly afraid that I wouldn't pass b/c i choked on a contracts essay. I'd memorized everything but couldn't get past whether an offer was made. I spent about five minutes freaking out about it, took a deep breath, and just assumed there was an offer and starting adding headings for defenses to contract, etc. I just worked through the anxiety and I passed.
In some ways, I think the most important thing at this stage is for each of you to hold your sh*t together. Freaking out will not help you. Yes, keep looking at your flashcards, think about what areas you're weakest in and work on those, but breathe, go see Wall-e and most likely you will pass.
Choking on a small part of a contracts essay is not exactly cause for concern. As long as you discuss the elements of an offer, you'd be fine. I'm thinking more along the lines of you completely miss an issue or get a "WTF" question.
I'm interested to know what topics (or issues within topics) people are kind of taking a pass on. Since we can't know everything, what is taking a backseat?
For me, it's CA civ pro. Anyone else?
CA Community Property
I'm afraid to let any subject totally slide but at the same time I just can't see how they expect us to know it all to pass.
Ca civ pro would be really hard if they ask it. I'm deathly afraid of it and CA evidence. Why didn't we learn prop 8 in evidence?
Sklansky taught Prop 8 along with all the CA distinctions. I'm <3'ing him right now.
Just remember: in a criminal trial, all relevant evidence is admissible. It mainly effects character evidence rules. Hearsay remains unaffected. I bet as long as you drop the term "Prop 8" into the essay somewhere, you'll be fine.
Yes, I mean I hope SO. I hope it is normal to never feel prepared.
Re comments re subjects to take a pass on.... CA Civ Pro is kind of a hard one to do anything with, anyway. So what, there is a difference in substituted process, waiver of process, and different filing deadlines? These are not issues that really can be centerpieces of an essay question.
Bar/Bri seems to think that there ARE a few things in CA Civ Pro to know, and they are not very difficult. I'm thinkin' of the "primary rights" issue, the John Doe defendant, and different class action rule. Knowing the terminology might be helpful too (who doesn't like the word "quash"), but otherwise I am not getting bogged down in it.
I'm also taking a pass on property, but that is not intentional. Crap.
I agree that the Bar is unlikely to test the fed time to respond to motions versus the CA time to respond, or how many interrogatories you can do in fed versus state court, etc. If that's the case I plan on guessing 10, 20, or 30 days and not worrying about it because no one else will know either. And if you do know that stuff, well, props to you!
I think CA evidence and Prop 8's effect on character is the way to go also.
Totally agree on the CA Civ Pro comments - there are just too many distinctions to memorize them all (what are there, 100 different special demurrurs?). From the zillion practice essays we've done, it does not seem that they get into that sort of detail. I'm not comfortable blowing anything else off though. I just had a 4 hour panic attack the other day after doing a remedies essay and having no idea what a purchase money resulting trust was. But it's all good now.
1) Is it normal to never feel prepared?
I certainly never felt prepared. I did realize that I had learned a lot (all of which I forgot that Thursday evening)--July 2007 was the only time in my life that I could have told you the elements of false imprisonment, for example. But no, I never felt "yes, I'm ready to take the bar today!"
2) Were there any essays on the actual exam that you had no clue about, and and how did you tackle those questions? Did you pass?
The essay about community property and a business partnership. I spent a lot of that essay thinking WTF? I calmed myself by thinking over and over that no one else knew that stuff either (whether true or not, it helped). And yes, I passed.
3) How much did you memorize the elements of each concept? Did you recite the BarBri answer, or put it in your own words?
Hahahaha, that's funny. I recited BarBri. That's what you or your firm paid $3000 for, right? If you thought you could pass by putting everything into your own words, why even bother with a commercial test prep company. Be. A. Sheep. This is not the time for your brilliant theories or original thinking. Give the grader what they expect--and that'll be the answer that BarBri teaches you to spit out.
4) People who didn't pass: any clue why?
Not applicable. But, see above, I would guess that some failed at the sheep mentality that the bar rewards.
(Note that by repeating the questions asked and answering them, I just demonstrated proper bar essay format.)
You call that a freak out? That's not a freak out. A freak out is reading your Civ Pro professor comment on your blog about Civ Pro as he is studying for the CalBar.
And since I'm very petty, this is what he had to say:
For what it is worth, these strike me as the most notable differences between federal and California procedure: notice v. code pleading; different special appearance rules, ie ways of waiving personal jurisdiction, venue, etc--remember in California that the motion to quash has to come in its own separate piece of paper before everything else; different ways of dealing with amending pleadigs to add a new party after the Statute of Limitations has run (learn the Doe defendant stuff, it's funky), different and broader standards for joinder of new parties by defendants; class actions (especially the fact that there is no b1-3 series and that notice is optional); no mandatory disclosure; corporate privilege differs; opinion workproduct absolute, for sure; 12 person juries required, but non unanimous OK; no requirement that you make DV motion to make JNOV motion; completely different approach (primary right) to claim preclusion, which can yield wildly different results, going either way. An interesting angle would be a judgment in a California state, or even better federal court, and then an interjurisdictional preclusion problem bringing the difference between the federal and state standards to the fore, a la Semtek, for civil procedure enthusiasts. I think that if they are going to examine on differences, the richest possibilities lie in waiver of jurisdictional defenses, amendment, maybe discovery, class actions, and claim preclusion.
A freak out is also losing your only form of government ID at an airport and the hotel not finding your reservation. Freak outs are common and come in all sizes. The whole point, as a commenter above said, is taking a breath, collecting yourself, and getting through this exam.
4:53 -- you mean you gave the boilerplate language recited in BarBri? How the hell did you memorize all of that? I would hope that bar graders recognize it's possible to convey the exact same concept using somewhat different language, but maybe I'm wrong.
Community property and a business partnership? I can see myself hitting my head on the table, if we got that one. I am also afraid of agency because they've only asked it once and that question was crazy hard.
Hey all, something about the Bar exam just came to my attention that should make us all feel better:
Next week is shark week.
I just wanted to take this opportunity to anonymously confess that I really haven't been studying as hard as I could of. I'm trying to study harder now that barbri ended, but I probably only did about 1/2 the work barbri assigned, if that. I made it to every lecture, but there were a lot of days that I just went home and watched TV or played with the computer.
Everyone I know is going so balls out, I don't feel like i can talk to any fellow bar studiers about this in person without sounding like a Mr. Cool Guy ("Oh I don't sweat the small stuff baby"). And I certainly can't mention it to my family or other loved ones without agonizing and distressing them as they've been well briefed on how hard the bar is. Anyhow, I have no idea if I'm going to pass or fail, sometimes i start feeling like I can do this, other times I realize that I'm sunk.
I just wanted to get that off my chest.
Oops, I mean, as hard as I "could have," not "could of." Down grammar doggies, down!
I am in a similar boat. I didn’t work as hard as I should have in June and spent the beginning of July obsessing about whether I had doomed myself to failure for that. Although I started doing more in July, I am still not as gung ho as some as my other friends who are up at 6am and going all day. I don’t know why the fear of failing wasn’t enough to get me to do more earlier. I wish I would have. I am just not *that* person and I am hoping that I have done enough. It terrifies me that I don’t feel completely secure in any one subject.
Hear hear (here here?) 8:07 and 8:35. I have been working "moderately" diligently and feel horribly unprepared.
Are people really getting up at 6am to study? I don't know how they can do that without hitting a wall.
I too was a little freaked to learn that people were waking up at 6am to study. Seriously? I burn out when I push past 8 or 9 hrs in a given day. The human brain can only absorb so much in a day.
It is unnecessary to get up at 6 am, so please don't let those people freak you out. Just concentrate on what you can do now, and keep your confidence up.
It's best to know yourself in this process - there will always be people who study more, as well as those who study less. Some people will know mortgages backwards and forwards, but then they can't do defamation to save their lives.
If it was necessary to get up at 6 am to study everyday for two months in order to pass the pass rate would be a lot lower. There is something to be said for keeping some perspective and not punishing yourself more than barbri already does.
I bet you guys will do fine. And remember, if there is something you don't know - "NOBODY!"
I just don't understand how people could be sitting around worrying about this so-called "bar" when CLR calls could be going out at any minute!
10:58:
Just for that, I won't be posting any encouraging words for you two years from now. Now back to being a sheep.
I did about 75% of the work along the way and went to all the lectures, and am still doing what Bar Bri tells me to do (mostly) and am putting in about 4-6 hours a day. I feel fine and confident, but reading these other comments (getting up at 6 am? seriously?) is scaring me...Anyone else studying like i am?
I have been attempting to put in about 8-10 hours for the past week or two, however, most of this time is spent goofing off. I'd guesstimate I'm spending about 6 productive hours each day.
I was doing maybe 4 hours outside of class for the first 6 weeks, and the past 2 weeks I've been doing about 8-9 hours a day. But that's only been for a week or two and I'm glad the exam is coming up because I couldn't keep up studying 8 hours a day for much longer!
And I'm not gonna let anyone tell me that's not enough.
For goodness sake, all of you stop posting how many hours you're studying. You're just going to freak out someone who isn't studying as many hours, and that person does not need to waste another hour freaking out about not studying.
Forget how many hours you've studied this summer or what time you get up or go to bed. Just do what you can with the time you have left. And if you're going to waste some of that time, at least waste it doing something fun rather than waste it in freaking out about not studying enough.
Baaaah, sheep, baaaah.
The comments actually make me feel a lot better...
I freaked out about the purchase money resulting trust too. I still have no idea what that is. Even when I read the definition. Meh. That alone will not cause me to fail. I'm going to do what I know I can personally do study wise, and know me and the way I work. Being a sheep on the actual essays and PTs is one thing, but being a sheep with regard to studying is a whole other thing. I'm doing a lot of the things that worked for me in law school (particularly closed book tests).
All - for the dismally humble amount that it's worth, you've got a whole lot of us with the bar in our future cheering you on. Keep up the good work!
I hope this makes you all feel better:
I just came upon a book of his randomly . . .
http://www.amazon.com/Too-Much-Picnic-Peter-Honigsberg/dp/1571431543/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216847493&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Armful-Memories-Peter-Jan-Honigsberg/dp/157143089X/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216841763&sr=1-7
http://www.amazon.com/Pillow-Dreams-Peter-Jan-Honigsberg/dp/1571430768/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216841763&sr=1-8
How much should we be getting right on the practice essays? Sometimes I'll answer a question and hit all or most of the points provided by the sample/released answers, while other times I will get only about 1/2 of the issues. Is this a common experience? Any bar-passers wish to comment?
If you're talking about the answers provided by Bar/Bri then I'd be VERY cautious. Those things are pretty close to worthless. They're good for pointing out something glaring that you miss, but in general I found a lot of mistakes, etc. and didn't really rely on them.
The sample answers from the bar are a good benchmark of what a perfect or near perfect essay will be like.
Beyond that, the question really can't be answered. What do you need on the essays? The highest you can get. Frankly, bar passers are a pretty useless group to ask. We don't know why or how we passed. I relied a lot on my former roommate who didn't pass the first time around. Because he got his scores, breakdowns, etc., he was quite helpful.
BarBri's answers for exams since 2001 are identical to (or, for a few, almost identical) to 1 of the 2 sample answers released by the bar. So Armen doesn't seem to know what he's talking about.
Well that last sentence is true in general. But do you want to try to offer an argument why you think sample answers are more useful than I imply? And more significantly why comparing sample answers from Bar/Bri to the calbar is worth a second of anyone's time?
2:29--Armen's point is still a good one. With the calbar examples, you know they have mistakes in them because they are actual exam answers. You see what passes, and what kinds of mistakes are OK. With the bar/bri sample answers, you at least initially expect the legal principles cited to be correct--but then when you find mistakes, it is off-putting. Bottom line--don't rely on the law as stated in sample answers.
My favorite is when their outline says something like "Harry is not entitled to reimbursement" and then the essay says "Harry is entitled to reimbursement."
If Barbri is going to go through the effort of putting together an outline... couldn't they at least make it consistent with the answer they "write"?
Also I love when they just mush together the two sample answers from calbar. Which often are inconsistent, or they throw in a point which is irrelevant and don't explain why it's even there. Or maybe I'm just really stupid.
Will my firm give me the boot if I fail? Do first-time flunkers get another shot? Or two?
also does anyone know what happens if Arnie fires all the exam proctors?
I'm interested too in what will happen if all the state's temporary employees are fired. Will there be volunteers to proctor the exam? Maybe they'll just say that we all get to pass this year since they can't administer the exam. But seriously, is it possible we'll have to take it in February?
My firm lets you fail it once and then I think it is case by case whether or not they fire you if you fail it again.
I don't know what would happen, but I would probably First address the Contracts Issue: Does the payment of fees to the Bar and satisfying the other requirements to sit create a binding contract right to sit for the bar?
Then, assuming there is a contract, what remedies, especially speculative nature of loss wages and the possibility of specific performance against a state entity.
Lastly, for Astro-Points, address the Constitutional Law question of the Contracts Clause and the state impairment of contracts.
Armadillos From Texas Play Rap Eating Tacos?
Theresa said:
I love that con law, contracts, remedies cross over concerning our governator. I also think the con law issue might be subject to strict scrutiny becasue it is government interference with a state contract. But Bar Bri never adds that to the model answers so I am not sure when it applies.
Seriously though, we need to not worry about the state workers and proctors. All the posts about it are making me nervous. I believe there are enough lawyers in Sacramento with clout that we will all be OK. Also, I know from my time working in Sacramento the former head of the Bar worked for our Grey Davis as a high level appointee. I suspect that someone like him can make sure everything will be OK. Either way, we have no power over it so there is no sense worrying, right? Of course, if we can't take the bar, doesn't that give us more time to study...
Good luck everybody!
Here's a Q: What's with this performance test shit?
Like every other Boaltie, I know how to write a memo/brief or anything that looks like it.
But what if they ask me to write interrogatories or draft a witness statement or analyze a fact pattern or something. Do I need to prepare for that right now or I will I get enough instructions to wing it?
6:02: did you not take Bar Bri? If not, just read all of the PTs on the Cal Bar website and you will get an idea of how much info they give you if there's something weird assigned. If you did take Bar Bri, read the first 20 pages of the Performance Test book.
6:02 - there are instructions that are sufficient for the weird things they assign. But it's probably worth 20 minutes to look through the things they could potentially ask of us so you can see what interrogatories or affadavits should look like.
Nah, no Bar Bri. Just a wing and a prayer. But I got some old books here, so I'll find that section. Thanks.
is it a really bad idea to only have done say, 2 PTs the whole way through? (having read over the intro to the PT books, glanced at the types of things they might ask about, outlined a few others...)
That question makes me feel *really* unprepared. Actually doing 2 of them and outlining others sounds like a lot of preparation to me.
ohhh god... i'm sorry about that... a few of my (gunner) friends were stressing me out by doing a lot and guilt tripping me about not having done any, i was just freaking out, which is why i even did 2 (both of them were in the past week). i really don't mean to stress anyone. :(
Agreed, 9:52 PM. I did the two that were assigned and plan to flip through the book this weekend.
No worries 10:22 - no stress here! -9:52
Um. What if you realize on Friday night that you don't have your admission ticket, can't find it anywhere?? Bar is closed all weekend--I'm panicking!?
In my "confirmation of laptop certification" 4-pg info sheet, it says: "Applicants requiring duplicate admittance tickets should come to the test center between 2:00 and 4:00 pm on Monday."
Thank you!! I just now read it--even though I've been looking through all my paperwork, and reading for stuff about admittance tickets, I somehow didn't catch this!! I guess that shows how much panicking will help. And who knew I would suddenly feel so happy that I am indeed able to take the exam...
I meant to put in a good 12 hour day today and all I've done is read half a stack of cards, taken a nap, and made myself some dinner. Oh gosh...what's wrong with me???
5:47 -- Ha! You're not alone. All I've accomplished today is purchase Rolaids and Immodium. Somehow I think they might be good to have around this week.
Yeah... I vaguely looked at some stuff, some cards, had a LOT of sushi and played "who has the biggest brain" on facebook (I figure this is a good way to exercise my brain).
The important thing is to be chill I think. I don't think my brain can take anymore learnin'...
Sushi, wow, gutsy. I love it. It's one of my favorite meals...but I wouldn't trust my stomach to Berkeley sushi joints 48 hours before the bar.
Hopefully this is a non stress inducing question. What is up with barbri book return? How much do you get, and how complete do the books need to be? I have torn out a fair number of pages.
Hey 10:30:
You can ship the books to:
California Bar/Bri
3280 Motor Ave. #200
Los Angeles, CA 90034
It is fine if the pages are ripped out, as long as you return them all with the book covers. I wonder if they actually check to make sure that every single page is accounted for....they say they do not give partial deposit returns.
You can also return the books to one of the Bar/Bri offices. There is one in San Francisco at 507 Polk Street.
They should WELCOME the pages being torn out, marked up, etc. It defeats their value on the resale market which, after all, is the whole point of the return. And which -- as I think one of our learned elders like IBZ or TF remarked last year -- is a totally brazen effort to squash fair use.
I'm sorry but I'm happy to hear others can't study either. I'm just sitting here with a book in front of me unable to open it. It's like the sheer fear of discovering there is something I don't know and don't have time to learn is keeping me from doing anything.
Good luck to everyone!
You mean the first sale doctrine?
The sushi was from a high quality place in San Francisco... I'm a risk taker, but not that much of a risk taker.
Good luck tomorrow everyone!
10:01, yeah, I guess. I didn't take IP. Everything I know I learned from T. Fletcher.
I'm going to quit reading essay answers now - it freaks me out too bad to see something I don't know. Good luck everyone! Remember what Honigsberg said, and have a nice dinner with an agreeable beverage tonight.
Good luck, bar takers! Remember to go in with a winning attitude, and I am sure you will all make Boalt proud.
And remember, be a sheep, that's all they want from you. You are more than smart enough, just as you are, for the California bar.
I just went to the Oakland Convention Center to check out the testing conditions. Everyone will be in one ginourmous room. They have set up folding tables and chairs and an outlet strip every four seats. Looks like parking in the hotel/convention center is $24 for >8 hours, but there is another parking facility close by if you are cheap. :)
Post a Comment
<< Home