Two Uncreative Ideas
At six weeks into my summer gig, and the beginning of a holiday weekend, today is an opportunity for repose. Unlike the gentleman in the thread below, I have kept the drinking at firm events in check. Unlike my friend [snip], I have kept my hands to myself. So, I dare say things are going well.
Things could, however, be going better. I suppose it is an old saw on this board, but I confess, I'm no different: I wish I had devoted more energy last fall to LRW. Legal research and writing is, in fact, what I do all week. It would be nice to remember how.
I also wish I had made it off the waiting list and into Civil Procedure II. It is embarrassing to know that I am the one person at my firm who understands absolutely nothing about jurisdiction – a concept that (from what I can gather) must be kind of important.
I have two curricular proposals. They are uncreative, but reasonable.
First, I propose grading in LRW, and teaching it with substantially less hand-holding. That would pull LRW from the back burner and put it on a par with our (arguably) less important classes. Many other law schools grade their writing courses, so the idea is workable. The less-hand-holding part of my proposal may be controversial, but I can see nothing but benefit. Analysis and writing are so inextricably bundled together that, by forcing students to do their own analysis of those LRW fact patterns, and then forcing students write their own analysis out, Boalt will help its students' legal reasoning across the board. I feel it would have helped my legal reasoning across the board, at any rate.
Second, Civil Procedure II should be a mandatory second semester class. I hear it used to be. I wish it still was.* I realize Boalt's admissions brochure scores points with Admits, by advertising that 1L's get to choose an elective or two. Those points do not buy much, however, for rising 2L's like me who cannot fathom the difference between state and federal court. Civil Procedure II. Bring it back, please.
One caveat: I have worked almost entirely on litigation projects this summer. That epxerience might make me overly sensitive to the procedure and writing angles of lawyerly-ness. But I do not think so. No matter what type of work a lawyer (or a "pretend lawyer" / summer associate) does, they must able to write. And they need to understand jurisdiction.
*Was? Were? Both Strunk and White, and Fowler's are silent on this one.
Things could, however, be going better. I suppose it is an old saw on this board, but I confess, I'm no different: I wish I had devoted more energy last fall to LRW. Legal research and writing is, in fact, what I do all week. It would be nice to remember how.
I also wish I had made it off the waiting list and into Civil Procedure II. It is embarrassing to know that I am the one person at my firm who understands absolutely nothing about jurisdiction – a concept that (from what I can gather) must be kind of important.
I have two curricular proposals. They are uncreative, but reasonable.
First, I propose grading in LRW, and teaching it with substantially less hand-holding. That would pull LRW from the back burner and put it on a par with our (arguably) less important classes. Many other law schools grade their writing courses, so the idea is workable. The less-hand-holding part of my proposal may be controversial, but I can see nothing but benefit. Analysis and writing are so inextricably bundled together that, by forcing students to do their own analysis of those LRW fact patterns, and then forcing students write their own analysis out, Boalt will help its students' legal reasoning across the board. I feel it would have helped my legal reasoning across the board, at any rate.
Second, Civil Procedure II should be a mandatory second semester class. I hear it used to be. I wish it still was.* I realize Boalt's admissions brochure scores points with Admits, by advertising that 1L's get to choose an elective or two. Those points do not buy much, however, for rising 2L's like me who cannot fathom the difference between state and federal court. Civil Procedure II. Bring it back, please.
One caveat: I have worked almost entirely on litigation projects this summer. That epxerience might make me overly sensitive to the procedure and writing angles of lawyerly-ness. But I do not think so. No matter what type of work a lawyer (or a "pretend lawyer" / summer associate) does, they must able to write. And they need to understand jurisdiction.
*Was? Were? Both Strunk and White, and Fowler's are silent on this one.
Labels: Classes/Professors
posted by Patrick Bageant at 2:01 PM
25 Comments:
Faculty have already approved of making Civ Pro a first-year course, both semesters, FYI.
Civ Pro both semesters is a fine idea.
I believe the only top school that has graded LRW is Chicago. 1L is stressful enough as it is. There's no reason to make it worse. Legal writing is a practical skill, all 1Ls need to learn how to do it, they don't need to compete with each other to see who can do it better.
It seems like the fact that legal writing is a practical skill is all the more reason to make students compete to see who can do it better. If grades are meant to allow employers to estimate lawyerly skills and potential, a good grade in LRW or WOA would be much more meaningful than one in Property or Torts.
LRW:
I agree that LRW grades might be a good idea. Moreover, I just don't buy the argument that it should not be graded because it would lead to competition. If there is going to be competition, LRW is the most real life applicable area for that to happen. I say this as a person who did not receive an award in WOA.
Civ Pro:
This class is really important for the real world--if you are to litigate--and for the bar exam. I am glad that I waited until second year becuase it is fresher in my head now, as I study for the bar.
General thought:
If you can stomach it, be sure to take a fair number of bar classes. I don't think you need to take everything, but definitely take most of the big multi state bar exam classes.
Final thought:
I'm sorry about my headings. I am now writing everything as if it was a bar essay:)
Just to clarify, take at least Evidence and probably also Crim Proc. It will make the bar a lot more difficult to learn Evidence for the first time in 3 or so days.
I didn't take crim pro and do not feel disadvantaged at all in bar study, but totally agree with above to TAKE EVIDENCE!!!!!! You do not want to see this really complicated material for the first time 1 week after you graduate.
And of course, take Civ Pro II, even if you're not going to litigate...another bar subject you definitely don't want to see for the first time in Bar Bri.
May I offer an amendment to your suggestion of requiring Civ II second semester: how about simply guaranteeing admission to all that want to take it?
I'm going corporate and Civ II does nothing for any of my summer gigs. I took it second year and I'm glad about that. Having some electives first year will give you a little more to talk about during OCIP.
However, I know a lot of potential litigators who wanted Civ II but didn't get in. Not having that course severely harms these individuals when they do their summer gigs, and that's something Berkeley should be trying to prevent.
Patrick--if you think that Civ. Pro. II should be mandatory for 1Ls now, wait until you start taking some more specialized law classes.
Civ. Pro. II is so fundamental to legal study that most classes assume knowledge of it, even if it's not in the class requirements.
Case in point: Prof. K_y's Conflict of Law class is nearly 1/3 jurisdictional issues, even though it doesn't have any formal course prerequisites.
PS Anyone notice the more advanced class search function on the Boalt webpage? Not only can you search by exam type, but it even tells you how many are currently enrolled/waitlisted for an upcoming Fall 2008 class. That's AWESOME.
I believe the plan is to increase Civ Pro I by a unit and include jurisdiction and venue in the first semester. Civ Pro II would be phased out and replaced by a course on complex litigation.
* "Was" and "were" are both "correct." "Were" is correct use of the subjunctive to express a condition contrary to fact. "Was" is the indicative, so commonly used in speech for this purpose that to call it "wrong" would be to call millions of native English speakers "wrong" -- which would be pedantic and silly. Still, you, as a law student, should probably know how to use the subjunctive "correctly," especially in writing. Fowler gives a good overview under the heading, "Subjunctive." Garner does too, under same heading, in Modern English Usage.
Patrick, I think there are two alternate pathways to achieve what you're describing.
1. LRW
This could be better integrated into pre-existing coursework, instead of designed as an auxiliary course. If it were more applied within a pre-existing required class (Torts, Property, Crim, CivProI), and if oral arguments were bumped up into the first semester, also, it would set up everyone much better for legal analysis/writing in the spring, summer, and for those interested in writing Notes.
CivPro I should really teach jurisdiction, even if it is taught in a cursory/introductory way to set up CivPro II.
2. Preparatory coursework
There should just be better guidance and suggested course lists (online) for what black letter classes you should take if interested in X practice field. They do things like this for the "specialized" programs, but EVERYONE interested in litigation should take Civ Pro I and II. Similarly, anyone remotely interested in (national) regulation should take Admin. Law.
There are certainly courses that are more topic-specific (e.g., Securities if you are interested in financial transactions or Community Development if that's your passion), but many are skill-oriented and cut across interests.
It actually would be relatively easy for STUDENTS to put this together, with guidance/assistance via advice from profs.
For what it's worth, I'm going into patent prosecution, in which CP2 & graded LRW make no difference to my success in firm work. While I agree that graded LRW would make people in the class try harder & pay attention more, it would be much less enjoyable if I felt the need to compete.
Saying that, I actually don't care about grades (so long as I learn everything I need to in a given class), so grading LRW wouldn't make much difference to myself. Though I prefer that people that cared about grades actually got the better grades, so maybe graded LRW would help in this regard?
Might I suggest for rising 2Ls who think they could have used a little more seriousness in LRW, that signing up to be a T.A. can actually be really helpful. The second time through I definitely absorbed twice as much. Plus, you make a little bit of spending money in the process.
I think someone should send all of our Registrar's emails blaiming Main Campus TO the Main Campus. Do you think it's all a cover up???
"Grade posting to transcripts was scheduled to take place last weekend. There was a problem. Today, some people will be able to see spring grades, others will not. Campus will restart the program again tonight. I will send an update email tomorrow."
What is "grades posting to transcript" mean? Does that mean grades posting to the "All Grades" tab on bearfacts?
It means if you order an actual paper transcript, your grades will be on there.
10:47,
Thank you. I acquired Garner's Modern Legal Usage dictionary, and his Elements of Legal Style, about a week ago. Both have been sources of indulgent and geeky pleasure.
Does anyone know if grades posting to transcripts coincides with awards posting to BearFacts? Or does that come later?
Awards usually take a while longer to show up on the bearfacts "All Grades" list. How much longer seems unpredictable. If you're really impatient, you can try ordering a paper copy. One semester they showed up on the paper transcripts before bearfacts (I can't remember how much before).
I wish I had the problem of worrying when my award(s) would come up in bearfacts:) I would like to make a request that people with awards perhaps try to be sensitive to the audience. Most folks here will never get such awards.
As I live and breath! N&B makes the New York Times. What a world we live in..
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/08/us/08angeles.html?hp
Whoa thanks for the link. I guess it'd be asking too much if the NYT actually linked to the original EW post.
Way to go, EW!
"Sensitive to the audience"???? Who cares? You know that someone got an amjur and a prosser in every big section class. What's the difference if someone anonymously claims it on a blog. Geez. Grow a pair...
Supposedly graduated 3L here ...
Any idea when our degrees get posted to transcripts? I.e., when can we get transcripts that show we actually matriculated with a J.D.? Or does the degree not get posted?
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