2008 Clerkship Post-game
Comments in a thread below ask for a place to further discuss clerkship opportunities at Boalt. One of those comments, from someone who obviously knows what they are talking about, contains a thoughtful series of observations and suggestions. I am quoting that comment in full, as it provides as good a place to begin as any.
First, Boalt professors rarely volunteer to contact judges on students' behalf. This puts students in the very awkward position of having to broach the subject. Clerkship hiring is based largely on personal connections. It's increasingly rare for students to secure an interview without knowing someone who knows the judge.
Second, many (if not most) Boalt professors seem willing to go to bat only for very highly ranked students. I worked very hard as a GSI for a professor, only to have them reach out to their judicial connections for a higher ranked student who did not serve as their GSI. I have heard similar stories from my classmates. As a result, the very highly ranked students (top 10% and above) tend to do extremely well while the marginal candidates (top 25-15%) tend not to. A student outside the top 10% will rarely get looked at by a judge without someone reaching out to the judge on their behalf.
Professors should get pushier about helping students secure clerkship interviews. A few years ago I attended a conference which had dozens of federal judges in attendance. I watched Yale faculty members introduce students to judges at the cocktail reception. Our esteemed faculty clerkship coordinator, who was also in attendance at this conference, did not even make an effort to say "hello" to the Boalt student attendees.
Third, Boalt does not have a very good alum network. The Career Office should do a better job of fostering alum networking. ES in the CDO has done a very good job of hooking current students up with Boalt alums. I have made a personal commitment to try to help Boalt students in any way I can, and hope others will do the same. An application has a much better chance of getting pulled from the pile if it mentions a former clerk's name in the cover letter.
Fourth, the school should study and re-evaluate its policy of ranking students for clerkship purposes. The new OSCAR system makes it too easy for judges to filter applications by class rank. Schools that do not rank their students are non-filterable.
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As an alum who failed to secure a clerkship until after I graduated, I agree that Boalt's clerkship "support" is quite lacking.First, Boalt professors rarely volunteer to contact judges on students' behalf. This puts students in the very awkward position of having to broach the subject. Clerkship hiring is based largely on personal connections. It's increasingly rare for students to secure an interview without knowing someone who knows the judge.
Second, many (if not most) Boalt professors seem willing to go to bat only for very highly ranked students. I worked very hard as a GSI for a professor, only to have them reach out to their judicial connections for a higher ranked student who did not serve as their GSI. I have heard similar stories from my classmates. As a result, the very highly ranked students (top 10% and above) tend to do extremely well while the marginal candidates (top 25-15%) tend not to. A student outside the top 10% will rarely get looked at by a judge without someone reaching out to the judge on their behalf.
Professors should get pushier about helping students secure clerkship interviews. A few years ago I attended a conference which had dozens of federal judges in attendance. I watched Yale faculty members introduce students to judges at the cocktail reception. Our esteemed faculty clerkship coordinator, who was also in attendance at this conference, did not even make an effort to say "hello" to the Boalt student attendees.
Third, Boalt does not have a very good alum network. The Career Office should do a better job of fostering alum networking. ES in the CDO has done a very good job of hooking current students up with Boalt alums. I have made a personal commitment to try to help Boalt students in any way I can, and hope others will do the same. An application has a much better chance of getting pulled from the pile if it mentions a former clerk's name in the cover letter.
Fourth, the school should study and re-evaluate its policy of ranking students for clerkship purposes. The new OSCAR system makes it too easy for judges to filter applications by class rank. Schools that do not rank their students are non-filterable.
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*I have posted into the comments a compendium of the commentary thus far from the other thread. Efficiency, and all. One place, you know?
posted by Patrick Bageant at 8:20 PM
25 Comments:
I would also question the way every students' application is sent to the judge in one envelope. Unless the judge is going to give ALL of the interviews to Boalties, they'd seem to decide to pick the very top ones and pass over everyone else. Then the top 3 in the pile get offered more interviews than they can handle and the rest get none.
Honestly, if I had it to do over again, I'd abandon the CDO paper process and spend $2 sending the paper applications first class mail on my own. If they arrived early, I hear from most clerks they will either be read early or simply saved until September 3. Not tossed in the garbage or anything. And then you don't have to go DIRECTLY up against the higher ranked students in your own class.
8:31 you have fingers like lightning. Here are the rest of the comments:
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Anonymous said...
Can we get a post about our TERRIBLE performance in securing judicial clerkships? I don't know if this is just a factor of our student body's relative quality, of the CDO's poor help in the process, or of our faculty's lack of contacts in the judiciary, but this is absolutely ridiculous (only four confirmed appellate clerkships so far, v. 58 for Harvard, 27 each for Stanford & Michigan, 25 for Virginia, 20 for NYU, and 18 each for Chicago and Penn). See: http://lawclerkaddict2009.blogspot.com/ A lot of people chose Berkeley over some of those other schools with the expectation that we'd have similar career options. Pretty devastating to see that this is simply not the case anymore, at least to the extent that the last two years' clerkship stats are any indication.
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tj said...
RE: clerkship numbers I think a thread is warranted, but not at this time. Those numbers don't include a number of people I can name off hand. We'll wait to see how it shakes out, and we'll do a thread at that point in time.
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Anonymous said...
I don't know if waiting will make the results any better. From what I hear, most appellate clerkships--and really all desirable ones--are filled by now. Many MANY were filled before the hiring plan timeline even commenced. I'd bet that was a huge part of our poor performance. CDO assistance with applications outside the confines of the hiring plan was all but non-existent. They even openly discouraged us from submitting early applications. Anyway, I don't know why we'd wait to talk about it. The only openings at the appellate level are probably in the 10th Circuit or something. Not likely to boost Boalt's numbers.
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tj said...
3:26/4:06 - I think you missed my point. The numbers on that blog don't accurately reflect the offers already extended. Hence, I'm not saying that we're waiting for more people to receive offers. I'm waiting for that blog to update its numbers. It only lists 6 clerkships for Berkeley. I can name at least 3 more (and I have no dog in this fight). I imagine there may be a couple more out there. 3:26/4:06 - go grab a beer and relax a bit. Pretty high strung today?
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Anonymous said...
agreed. I don't think that following the numbers given by a blog, that requires people to submit information on the clerkships they have received, is an appropriate method for determining how well berkeley is doing in securing clerkships. Not only am I willing to bet that the blog is run by someone connected to Harvard (a school with 500+ students in each class), but I also think that any number that doesn't consider the percentage of people who applied vs. percentage of clerkships received is an appropriate measure.
Alright, so we have some complaints. How can we really get the CDO to take heed?
Really, how closely did you try to work with the CDO? I got all of my questions answered within 24 hours and got consistently helpful feedback. I think Eric St*rn is incredibly nice and helpful.
Also, is it really that awkward to broach having people call for you? My profs were beyond nice about calling judges, but I had to narrow it down and tell them the judges I really hoped they would be willing to contact. Ask within reason and you shall receive.
And none of these people asked for my class rank.
Ok 3:26/4:06 - you finally got what you wanted.
I still assert this is far too premature.
But I suppose we can always bump it back to the top once more comes out on how each school did...
In response to one point that was made:
didn't the CDO OSCAR guide specifically tell us not to contact, let alone reference in a cover letter, Boalt alums now clerking for certain judges? Wasn't that bad advice?
lawclerkaddict is not accurate, and i question its propriety - i dont think it's right to post about your own personal job search. and i say this as a boaltie who did score a clerkship.
11:26: What do you mean it's not "right" to post about your job search? It's very helpful for us clerkship applicants to know which judges have hired, which are waiting, etc. I'm sure the judges' chambers appreciate it as well, since it may cut down on the number of students calling them for info.
Also, it's helpful (in addition to being just plain interesting) to know which schools judges hired from.
11:26 here. i dunno, i guess i just see it as bragging and potentially a breach of confidence. maybe it's related to the fact that i only ever comment anonymously on blogs. related, the fact that at OCIP, you could see everyone's name on the door of the place you were interviewing with kind of creeped me out. it seems very competitive and non-boalt. or, maybe i'm just a paranoid lawyer in training ...
that said, i have no objection to just saying "judge x has hired," but I, myself, will not be posting "judge x has hired from boalt" when the person from boalt is me.
Those law clerk blogs are anonymous. Get over yourself. Nobody gives a shit who you are; they just want to know which judges have hired and from which schools.
get over myself for not wanting to contribute to the mass hysteria that, in most cases, boalt has avoided? sheesh.
Why aren't more people mad as hell that Boalt ranks its students for clerkship apps? The person whose post was quoted up top was right to point out that this practice hurts a ton of marginal applicants. It's maddening that the school tries to sell itself to 0Ls by claiming "look, we're so noncompetitive and special at boalt we will never rank you. . . . except for when it comes to seeing who can take advantage of one of the most important opportunities in the legal world." Please, stop using the "we're special because we don't rank" line on 0Ls until you stop ranking for a purpose that ALL OF OUR PEER INSTITUTIONS DO NOT. So yeah, boalt is special, but not in a good way.
Of course, this isn't a load of blame that I mean to lay entirely at the feet of the administration. After all, the student body is up in arms about paying $25 for a locker, but doesn't have much to say about rankings for clerkship apps.
Sara, the idea has been beaten to death on these very pages. My personal favorite is to come up with some sort of a BS award for those in the top third after four semesters. I think we settled on "Earl Warren Scholar." See, e.g., 11:25 AM comment here. The flip side of your rant is that our "peer" schools also have an academic component to law review which serves as a cute little proxy for relative rank.
Plus anyone who thinks that a clerkship is "one of the most important opportunities in the legal world" needs to be stabbed with a dull knife (read: secured to antidepressants with a heavy dose of reality). But that's just my humble opinion. I think getting an innocent man off death row is one of the most important opportunities in the legal world. A clerkship is an opportunity. Nothing more. You can gain better experience by volunteering as a panel attorney at your local federal court. But such things don't satisfy the ego for some.
Armen = still bitter about not getting a clerkship
6:32 AM = too much time on ATL.
Re: the alum networking bit. I know CDO tried--there was a happy hour/networking event at Boalt last spring. As a current clerk at the time, I was invited but couldn't attend because the event conflicted with the court's calendar. I also know that my email address and the judge for whom I worked appeared in the clerkship guide--guess how many Boalties emailed me. I know other clerks had the same experience--no one reached out to us. I didn't put my email address out there to not be contacted; I put it there b/c I would like to be helpful, and talking to former clerks is one of the best (if not the best) way to get a sense of the different judges within a particular court. Clerk selection really is a lot of "who you know" and no one will know you if you don't reach out to people. I know it can be intimidating to make a cold phone call, but I don't think many Boalt alums would react negatively to an email that says, "hi, I'm applying for a clerkship, I saw your email in the guide, could we chat sometime?" To summarize my point: yes, the alum networking could be better, but I don't know that people are taking advantage of what is currently available.
Re: Boalt's "poor" showing overall. First, I'm not sure that it's that poor, second, Sara's and Armen's point about the rankings cannot be overstated, and third, the competition really can't be overstated either. After reviewing the applications for our replacements, my co-clerks and I were shocked that we had ever been hired. Talk about a humbling experience. There are *really* amazing people out there, and so much of the hiring is the luck of catching the right person's eye at the right time. I'm not exaggerating when I say we really could have just drawn the names out of a hat and gotten perfectly qualified people. Hopefully, if Boalt implements something like Armen's Earl Warren Scholars idea, the luck will fall in Boalt's favor more often.
11:06, it wasn't my idea. Another thoughtful commenter suggested it. But I wholeheartedly believe we're shooting ourselves in the foot with percentile/numerical rankings wrt clerkships and academia.
11:06- as someone mentioned before, the CDO Clerkship Guide cautions students not to contact current clerks.
Also, I contacted a bunch of former clerks from that guide, and got about a 50% response rate. A lot of the email addresses for past clerks seemed outdated, too.
Wow, that's an incrediably class-less move, outing someone's rank on a blog using an only slightly better than anonymous username. And you've got to be delusional if you really think the CDO runs a grade check before deciding whether and how to repond to emails asking for help.
People need to get over their sense of entitlement. Professors and the CDO can be incrediably helpful, but you have to put in the leg work, ask for what you need, and follow up on the details. No one is going to spotaneously figure out what you want and send it on over wrapped up with a bow. Those three steps obviously won't get you all the way there -- a ton of luck is involved, particularly with clerkships -- but they will take you pretty far.
I asked for plenty of help starting in the fall of my 2L year because I knew that I really wanted to clerk.
I had one professor who initially expressed willingness to call their connections on my behalf, only to have them backpedal on their statement the week prior to the clerkship deadline. I later found out that they called their connections on another student's behalf (one who likely did not need the phone call given their class rank).
One adjunct didn't ever write the promised recommendation letter. CDO did not notify me that one of my letters had not arrived by the deadline or the following week. I started checking in with the clerkship coordination staff daily, which seemed to annoy them greatly. I couldn't get a straight answer as to whether the letter had not been received at all, whether it had been received but not processed by Boalt, or whether the faculty member had been contacted. They couldn't even tell me who the administrative person in charge of the adjunct was - I was told that the person with that information was on vacation. Finally, the lady in charge of overseeing the whole clerkship application process told me that "plenty of judges only require two recommendation letters" and that if I get so worked up about a minor thing like this (I was quite worked up by this point), I would never make it in the legal world.
I mentioned to numerous professors that I was applying to clerk. I asked them for suggestions on where to apply, and was provided with tons of "don't get your hopes up" comments (I was one of those borderline candidates) and very little substance. Zero professors offered to make calls on my behalf. The one professor who I asked to make a call never returned my email. I felt like I was being a huge burden every time I emailed my professors with a question about the clerkship process.
I went to the CDO info session to prepare students for interviews. They had us exchange our resumes with our classmates for doing mock interviews with each other. It was a huge waste of time.
The entire process was demoralizing and made me feel like I was placing a huge burden on my recommenders.
I did not get a clerkship.
wow, i'm sorry 8:17. fwiw, you should be very competitive to reapply. keep an eye on oscar and on appointments (should be more after november) for clerkships that start off-cycle. also, i ignored the CDO advice not to personalize judge letters. you might also consider externing next semester to make contacts at the court.
also, did you consider using non-boalt recommenders? i used one from my summer job and had good luck with that .
from a Boalt alum, current USCA clerk:
It is very useful to chambers for all of the applications from a school to arrive in a single envelope. This is because many judges only want to look at applicants from certain schools. Thank god Boalt is often on the approved list. The applications from each school will be ranked regardless of whether they all arrived in one envelope or not.
Also, in response to the comments about professors not being helpful with personal introductions: a professor's reputation is put on the line when they recommend a student. If a professor doesn't want to stand up for you, don't label them as lazy or ungrateful --they are likely being prudent about who they recommend. (I'm sure you're great, of course).
Professors are free to recommend whoever they want, but they shouldn't give students mixed messages. They should also be upfront with students before the student agrees to be their research slave for another semester.
Also, my experience (and others' experience, based on anecdotes I heard) was that professors blindly used class rank to decide who they would use connections for. A recommendation should be based on the professor's personal experience with the student, not on the student's class rank. The value of a recommendation is to say "Hey, this student may not be in the top 5%, but they excelled in my class, served as my RA, and I know they're great" and to highlight the student's strengths. A lot more Boalties would get clerkships if professors did this. Profs don't have to recommend a student in the top 1/3 of the class for a 9th Circuit clerkship (although when they do use personal connections to help a student in the top 1/3 or even 1/2 of the class, it seems the 9th Cir is not out of reach), but they could tailor their efforts to the students' target clerkship.
I think Boalt's CDO support is abysmal for those who want to clerk. I also think that there is no rhyme or reason in putting Eric in charge of clerkships when he, himself, has never clerked. Nor did he go to a top ten law school (!). That makes no sense to me. I've heard from others that he discourages students from clerking if they are not in the top of their class. The truth is that grades matter (of course they do), but you NEED to apply, no matter what, and then see what happens.
Look guys, as a former clerk, you need to do very well in your classes (or try to), and then the rest is just working hard at getting good letters (try to take seminar classes or do research for a professor); extern for a judge during law school (so you get good reference or letter from another federal judge, and so you know what you're getting yourself into), and get very good research and writing experience from your summer jobs. Also, if you can clerk during the school year to make sure you get that extra research and writing experience. These things will increase your chances at getting a clerkship. Grades matter, but only to a certain extent. Connections matter, too, but having an interesting resume, very strong letters and references, a good writing example, along with decent grades (top half of the class) will allow you to roll with the best of them. Good luck!
Hi Patrick,
I think clerkship apps is helpful for students.Also, it's helpful topic to know which schools judges hired from.Thanks....
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