From the OCIP Spin Room
From a previous thread:
Anonymous said . . .
Off topic, but how about a post on the 2L/3L job market, from a Boalt perspective?
Like the one here: [ ATL Link 1; Link 2].
I had part of that conversation last night with a friend, who wondered whether the recent economic events will affect job prospects for Boalt's class of 2011.
On one hand, I'm hardly in a position to know; I've never been to Boalt before, nor have I ever chased a high end professional job -- with or without a downturn. On the other hand, I do suspect Boalties are more insulated than most law students in this country. If law firms are indeed tightening the belts, they are probably hiring less deeply into the curve, or forging hiring at some schools altogether. Babble on the internets suggests that what happened here with Thelen happened at other schools on a larger scale. I realize that all of what I just said is heavy on pontification and light on substance, but hey, I'm a law student. It's become my forté.
Incidentally, a count of "+" marks in OCI threads from previous years suggests that Boalt actually landed callbacks from more firms this year than last, although how they may have been distributed across the class is anyone's guess.
Finally, I'm exhausted on OCI stuff. But if you still have the steam, here is your thread.
----------------
[Update 10/09: The Shark argues if you want to hedge your bets against a recession, California is the place to do it.]
Anonymous said . . .
Off topic, but how about a post on the 2L/3L job market, from a Boalt perspective?
Like the one here: [ ATL Link 1; Link 2].
I had part of that conversation last night with a friend, who wondered whether the recent economic events will affect job prospects for Boalt's class of 2011.
On one hand, I'm hardly in a position to know; I've never been to Boalt before, nor have I ever chased a high end professional job -- with or without a downturn. On the other hand, I do suspect Boalties are more insulated than most law students in this country. If law firms are indeed tightening the belts, they are probably hiring less deeply into the curve, or forging hiring at some schools altogether. Babble on the internets suggests that what happened here with Thelen happened at other schools on a larger scale. I realize that all of what I just said is heavy on pontification and light on substance, but hey, I'm a law student. It's become my forté.
Incidentally, a count of "+" marks in OCI threads from previous years suggests that Boalt actually landed callbacks from more firms this year than last, although how they may have been distributed across the class is anyone's guess.
Finally, I'm exhausted on OCI stuff. But if you still have the steam, here is your thread.
----------------
[Update 10/09: The Shark argues if you want to hedge your bets against a recession, California is the place to do it.]
Labels: 0L/1L Advice, OCIP/Employment
posted by Patrick Bageant at 6:11 AM
37 Comments:
Shouldn't we wait until at least a week after flybacks to start the freak-out thread?
It does seem harder to get offers this year compared to last year (at least based on the 2007 OCIP data). I've already received a few post-callback rejections from firms that had very high offer/callback ratios in 2007.
I think that must be the case. Last year, I remember plenty of people had offers by the time fly-back week ended. I think I'd heard from all but one of the firms that I interviewed with during that week before I left on Friday.
Most firms I talked to last week said it'd be a week or two. Must be waiting to see how Hahvahd OCI turns out...
I haven't found firms to be stingy with offers this year. I got 12 callbacks, went on 6, got offers from 4, and am still waiting to hear from the other 2 (the interviews were less than a week ago).
YMMV, but I still think that even if you have all Ps, you'll get a job as long as you know how to talk to people and do something (journal, club, etc.) to make your self stand out. The job won't be at "top firm," but that is hardly the end of the world. And if you still really want to work at one of the highly ranked vault firms, get good grades or tell your interviewer you're interested in bankruptcy law.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ok look, lets NOT let this be a thread of "I got 18 callbacks went on 10 and got 9 offers, i'm going to V5 LOLZ."
Seriously, just say "I got good grades, so my comments don't matter to the people that this thread is aimed towards."
Good grades mean you have jobs thrown at you. We know. The bigger question with Boalt OCI, is whether the people with less than, say, 3 H/HH's first year are having trouble. Last year, if you had all P's it was entirely likely you would still have a shot at a firm job. How is that looking now?
As for 3Ls, I will say that hiring has been amazingly bad. I know very few 3Ls that had any luck, especially those that got no-offered from last summer. That said, firms also take much longer to get back to 3Ls, because they are waiting on last summers class to accept/reject their offers.
"you'll get a job as long as you know how to talk to people"
I think this is key. I'm not a very good interviewer, which I think hurt me more than it would have in previous years.
Also, selfish as it may be, I'm glad I went on all my callbacks rather than only the ones I really wanted. Otherwise, I would have be toast b/c I was rejected by all my top choices.
What's real fun is when you're the one with mostly HH/Hs, go on 8-9 callbacks, get 2 dings, and silence from the rest. Real fun...
i'll just say that it sucks to be a 3L without a job right now :(
Theresa said:
I'm posting under my name since many people know why I am in the job market:)
I'm so sorry that you guys are having a hard time in the job search. It was relatively easier when I went through it (the first time) in 2006. But I still remember SF and DC being harder than other places.
Please keep in mind that it's a tough market out there, for all involved. Searching as a 4L (that is, post graduation) is terrifying and demoralizing. My advice is to keep pushing along. I think the 3Ls might find some interview spots opening up after the NALP deadline passes. Be flexible about location too, if you can. That's how I finally found a job.
Be sure to check out the financial health of your possible firm, both as a 2L and as a 3L. In my case, the bad stuff didn't really happen until after I committed. Watch out for firms whose major clients (Lehman, Wachovia, Bear Sterns, Merril Lynch, etc.) have just gone out of business. They may say it doesn't affect them, but I don't buy it.
Finally, be an advocate for yourself when you do get a job. People in the firm are not necessarily going to help you if things get bad.
"Be flexible about location too, if you can."
Definitely agree with this. Some markets are simply doing much better than others.
On which day can I appropriately begin to freak out about not having heard back from anyone I visited during callback week?
The majority of the firms from which I have received offers took over a week to get back to me... you've still got some days.
McWho,
Even though it may irritate you to hear people recount their positive interviewing experience, the information is still valuable to people who are waiting to hear. If a lot of boalties are getting close to 100% offer rates on callbacks, then the previous poster's experience of more callback dings may be more of an outlier. If the offer rates are significantly lower than 100%, then boalties who have yet to get an offer have more reason to worry & should begin to explore other options.
If your complaint is that the people getting all these callbacks are obviously just high-grade-having braggers, then you're already assuming there is a problem. Is it impossible for someone to have success without having good grades? You appear to think the answer is yes, but I don't what your basis is for believing that.
My OCI experience leads me to believe the SF market is hurting more than other markets -- probably because firms are gunshy in the wake of the Heller collapse. All of a sudden, there are more associates, partners and support staff on the market.
I have pretty good grades. I did about 20 SF OCI interviews and about 10 in LA. In callbacks I went 2/4 in SF and 6/6 in LA.
I've also noticed that the SF firms I do have offers with seem to be much less active in courting me. With the LA firms, I'm getting dinner offers, congratulatory e-mails from the people I interviewed with, and lots of material on benefits and the summer program. I've heard almost nothing from the SF firms. I wonder if it's an attempt to get fewer people to accept?
Wow, 6/6 in LA. Uh oh for me.
3 Callbacks in New York and 1 Offer. Also, I had zero luck in the SF market during OCI. I probably had 7 or 8 interviews and only 1 callback, which I canceled.
My grades are a mix of H/HH with one P. I did 25 OCIP interviews and got 6 callback offers - 1 in SF, 2 in DC, and 3 in NY. Of those callbacks, I've gotten 3 dings, 1 offer, and 2 I'm waiting to hear from.
I'm sure that part of the reason for my low screening/callback ratio is that I'm interested in a very specific area of the law, which not all firms handle work in. Having said that, however, all the firms I did callbacks with have a strong practice in that area.
Good grades does not automatically equal a great interview season.
"Good grades does not automatically equal a great interview season."
Agreed. I have mostly Hs, but I haven't gotten any offer yet. I have, however, gotten a few rejections already.
Also, I only interviewed with LA firms. Maybe I should start freaking out because at least one person has heard from all of the LA firms she/he interviewed with.
I guess when I made my (grantedly opinionated) post, I meant about 50/50 HH/H when I said "good grades."
That was mostly because the above poster sounded like he did well enough for that to be the case. If not, congrats to them for a great OCI.
Hiring freeze credit freeze style
I was talking to a partner in a Bay Area firm in an interview about the interaction of recession, Heller's demise, and summer offers.
To paraphrase, the partner said:
Everyone knows that the number of offers will be down across all firms. Thus applicants will have fewer options, and, therefore, will be more likely to accept an individual extended offer. And no firm really knows exactly how many fewer offers will be extended by any other firm. Thus, no firm trusts their previous years numbers on expected acceptance per offer.
As a result, the firm was extending offers more slowly than in the past. By analogy it's "one out, one in." They are waiting for some rejections before extending too many offers so that they don't miss their own target by too much.
So for those of you sitting w/o an offer or one that you don't really like -- it's terrible; trust me I know -- don't panic. It's going to be a slow fall.
Ooooh. Earthquake.
Anyway, were was I? Ah, yes. For those of you who are holding onto multiple offers that you know that you won't accept, this year, perhaps more than others, it'd be really nice of you if you turn down the ones that you know that you won't accept.
I just wanted to second the responses to McWho to the effect that you don't necessarily get jobs "thrown at you" just because you have good grades. Like 9:09 I had all H/HH and 1 P, a resume that interviewers invariably tell me is "really interesting," and ostensibly non-awkward conversations in all my interviews. My results are exactly identical to 9:09: 1 offer, 3 denials, waiting on 2.
McWho, I know you have good intentions in trying to stifle this kind of discussion....but as others have said its (1) actually useful in a forward-looking pragmatic sense and (2) reassuring to know that you're not the only one not getting any law firm love.
5:18
Are you my evil twin? I've always know there was one out there somewhere.
--9:09
Gosh, as a third person in essentially the same boat as 5:18 and 9:09 (but still awaiting my first offer), I wonder what our school and CDO is going to do for those of us who did incredibly well, thought it would lead to a good job somewhere, but then found that it didn't. Right now, it's starting to look like I just flushed a pile of money down a toilet of empty promises.
This is sad. Any happy news out there?
You guys were not the type I was talking about.
It was the tone of 8:28 that set off my reaction. It really doesn't help discussion to say "people will be fine, I got alot of offers" without qualifying whether they have some extraordinary ability/transcript/attribute that would warrant that interest by firms.
Well, got another ding today. That means no offers from half of my callbacks. Still waiting on the first one...
Lolz at 4:32's "ooo. earthquake."
Anyway, my grades are pretty bad. I'm a straight-through 2L with all P's and 2 H's. I only looked in SF & PA and did as many screenings as I could (about 40 total). So far I've managed to get 2 offers (one in SF, one in PA) and I'm still waiting to hear for 3 SF callbacks.
From what I'm hearing, it seems the market has definitely slowed in competitive areas like SF.
Can someone please give advice on how we can tell if a firm is financially healthy/won't no-offer 2Ls at the end of the summer? Aside from reading ATL, is there any way to know / any good questions to ask?
Look around to see if the real associates are busy. In advance of being there to watch, you could try to casually ask some how busy they are. Look at who the firm's major clients are and perhaps steer clear of firms who are extremely dependent on certain banks. Consider their primary business practices. (Patent litigation-good; M&A-not good.)
I don't know 8:52, I don't think those are necessarily a decent proxy for actually judging a firm's health. Personally, I'd ask:
1. How much debt does the firm have?
2. What did the firm do in 2002/03 when the tech bubble burst? Any layoffs? What about early 90s?
3. What % of the firm's revenue come from its top client?
4. What % of the firm's revenue come from each department?
5. [To an associate] What impact/effect does not meeting your hours have? What % of first years meet their hours?
6. Have there been any cuts in support staff, services, the summer program?
I know these posts have mostly been about BigLaw, but I think the downturn is hurting the smaller firms as well. I got a ding today from a screening interview at a small firm (so long to wait for it!) which basically said: after long consideration, we've decided not to hire a summer associate at all. Potentially this decision is related to other office issues, but I have to imagine the economy played into it.
I have two lingering questions:
1. If I want to work Big Law and didn't get a position through OCIP (probably because I focused on the wrong markets), what do I do now? Is a mail merge to NY or LA even worth it at this point?
2. What should I do this summer? Feeling like another summer of public interest would completely kill my Big Law prospects next year, is government the better route?
I would do the mail merge, but you should do it rather soon. Harvard just wrapped up OCI, so you haven't missed the boat.
As far as other summer jobs, you have plenty of options. You could work at a smaller firm, or a DA's office in order to get some trial experience. I know that Contra Costa is hiring right about now for that program. I would assume Alameda is still interviewing as well.
Good luck! I got my job post-OCI last year, so I know it is possible if you are persistent.
I have a follow-up on the mail merge question - if I do it, how do I avoid the inevitable "Why didn't you interview with us when we were on campus?" question?
And McWho, what type of job did you have that you got after OCI?
6:08,
I'm not McWho, but I also got several offers outside of OCIP. I did a mail merge to firms that didn't come to OCI (hence avoiding the inevitable question of why I didn't interview with them before), and I got a job that was posted on B-line. I ended up working for a big firm.
I got a v100 job in orange county out of it. I also got an offer from a v50 in SV.
Don't forget to use friends too---firms do take notice when people they have given an offer to recommends someone else that is applying after OCIP.
Post a Comment
<< Home