Am I Passing the Bar or Not?
I guess rankings are being released. Boalt still uses numerical rank for the top 5 individuals (transfers excluded), then 5% increments thereafter until 50th percentile. The stated purpose is clerkships and academic hiring, but the anecdotal evidence is that at least for the former, this hurts rather than helps. Still no indication that the faculty are even considering adopting the systems of our peer schools (no rankings, but faux awards to indicate some place relative to your classmates, e.g., Harlan Fiske Stone Scholar. In short, get rid of rankings and start the Dean's List. Will add links to previous post on this topic over the weekend.
Bonne Chance.
Bonne Chance.
Labels: Kevin Smith
posted by Armen Adzhemyan at 5:01 PM
28 Comments:
Thanks for the thread. So does your 2L rank stay with you forever, or do they re-rank during or after 3L? They must at least wait until the end to do Order of the Coif calculations. Just wondering in terms of applying for clerkships a few years out instead of directly from school.
They re-rank you every semester. But to be honest, based on anecdotal information, it seems like there is very little movement between percentile categories.
I thought they do numerical for 1-10... can anyone verify?
Yes, you are correct. The rules say:
These GPAs will be used to determine numerical and percentile rankings for the ten students with the highest GPAs in the class. For the remainder of the class, the GPAs will be converted into information about...percentile rankings...
As for 5:35PM's comment, it's my understanding that Order of the Coif is calculated based on the first 5 semesters (so your 3L spring semester is irrelevant for that calculation).
This would make sense given that there's no way profs will have figured out graduating 3Ls' grades before the graduation ceremony.
They will also tell you, quite politely, that "people get clerkships from all places in the class" if you are one of those people with one H and are just curious.
order of the coif is based on all semesters. (it's not announced in conjunction with graduation.)
1 H = no clerkship. 0 HH + all H = no clerkship.
Where do you need to be in the class to be a strong candidate for a standard Federal District Court clerkship? top 20%, top 10%, top 5%??
I'm top 20 percent. Will I be competitive for federal appellate clerkships? I'm assuming SF and LA will be tough, but what about other areas for the 9th Circuit? What about other circuits?
Totally depends on the judge. Some will only interview numbered students, others top 5%, others top 20%, other don't care so long as you have, for example, a strong public interest background that aligns with the judge's interests.
Boalt definitely, definitely needs to stop ranking. It only hurts students when applying. I clerked twice and went through applications, and most schools you really have no idea, just a general sense that someone did well or really, really well. So you look at other things. When you're looking at Boalt apps, especially in the Ninth Circuit, there are like 30-40, so naturally you look for an easy way to cull it down. I know for my judge we had 8 of the 10 numbered students apply, so s/he said just give me your favorites from there. I passed on half and then two got interviews. And then of course those two people have a million interviews. Not a good system.
It's unfortunate, but if you are not Top 10 (ordinal), you probably won't be clerking on the 9C. Boalt just does too terrible a job compared to sister schools. You'll probably be competitive in flyover country though -- just remember to explain in your cover letter why you have a particular connection/fondness/attraction to that part of the country. (E.g, "My aunt's half-sister Maya owns a pool supply shop in Fargo; I've always wanted to spend some time there on the 8th Circuit, handling wood-chipper cases.")
I would have thought that outside the top 10 (ordinal), one could get a position in the less popular Ninth Circuit - Boise, Billings, Reno, etc. Is that not true?
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH BOISE?????
;)
I think the suggestion was that Boise, Billings and Reno suck, and nobody would ever want to go there. Where everyone is real excited to be in SF, LA, Portland, or Seattle. Really, I think the comment was probably just meant to get a rise out of Patrick, though.
No, unfortunately, it's not true. There's too many students who are Top 10 at UCLA, USC, Texas, etc. who are happy to take those positions before Boalties lower down are hired. Not to mention the fact that, even for those judges in say, Phoenix and Billings, half their clerks are Harvard, Yale, and Stanford anyway. And it's not as if there's a bunch of "hidden" judges in the 9C. Once you're done with Pasadena, SF, Seattle, Portland (and the specific judges mentioned above), you're left with maybe three or four judges scattered in a few random places (Reno, Honolulu, Fairbanks).
But the good news is, judges in other parts of the country really WANT Boalties, because it adds some interesting diversity. And it's not as if it's terrible to live in Salt Lake City or Tallahasse or St. Louis for a year doing a cool job.
But I can't stress this enough, you MUST express interest in the particular location (if not the particular judge), or they will simply not believe you're seriously interested. Interview slots are precious for judges too -- they want to interview people on the first day who might accept their offer. If you just send a standard cover letter to, say, the 6th Circuit, most judges will simply assume you applied to 150 judges, have no particular interest in them, and so why should they bother?
It's kind of amazing how sensitive they are to this. I remember when I applied to the 1st and 2nd Circuits, I got two phone calls, from clerks in New York and Boston, both saying something like, "Are you really interested in moving to ____ city for this job -- or did you just apply broadly?" I was thinking like, "We're talking about BOSTON here, right? Do I really have to prove I'd be willing to move to Boston? Aside from the Celtics and Patriots it's, um, one of the great American cities, right?"
So you can imagine how a judge in Oklahoma City might feel if he doesn't feel the love from the Berkeley student.
so far people seem to be focusing on appellate judges. What about DC judges? are they easier if you say in the top 15%
...all these "my rank is x, what are my chances?" questions are stupid. recognize that this is an echo chamber and even if various things are oft-repeated, nobody actually "knows" how the Ninth Circuit or the entirety of any other circuit or district hires. They don't know because there's no direct answer.
Clerks obviously get very good insight into how their own judge hires. But it's an idiosyncratic process and varies a lot by chambers. Your rank is clearly relevant, but there's no magic correlation.
12:21, your comment about needing to be in the top 10 for 9C is way, way off. Yes, you need to have done well, but you don't need to be top 10, that's just silly. Though the others who say ranking hurts Boalt students are definitely right.
Anyway, the single most important factor in clerkships hasn't been mentioned yet: professor connections. A student with a lower ranking but a professor who will work on their behalf will do better than a higher ranked student without any good professor relationships. And this is really the area (along with ranking in the first place) where Boalt fails its students. Many schools have formal programs to help professors help students. While several Boalt professors are helpful with clerkship apps, many seem indifferent (or at least don't think to discuss it).
So many professors clerked or have relationships with judges, and Boalt needs to do a better job leveraging those relationships (and stop ranking!).
What professors have connections?
Um, pretty much all of them, to some extent. That's kind of a broad question.
With the judge I clerk for, a good recommendation will trump a class rank (provided the person still did reasonably well at Boalt). The judge likes knowing that someone is "backing" the candidate with their (the recommender's) reputation because class rank is still a pretty poor proxy for whether someone will be a good clerk.
Don't forget that many attorneys have connections to judges too. Your summer associate mentors or colleagues could be a big help. Also, when I applied, a few judges specifically asked for work recommendations (off the top of my mind, Matz in CD Cal) to make sure you could do "real work."
I agree with 2:56, next to gonig to a good school, professor connections are probably the single most important factor. I know people from Boalt who have clerked on the 9th Circuit and were not in the top 10%, 20%, or even 30% of their class. The key is to have a professor who is going to pick up the phone and fight for you. And of course, that phone call will get the most traction if that professor has a relationship with the judge.
I slightly disagree with 12:21. I think your cover letter should focus more on why you want to work for the judge you are applying to, as oppossed to why you want to live in the city he/she resides. I believe this to be especially true if the city the judge lives in is somewhat random. The reality is, people know why you are applying (you just want to clerk, not have your first born child there), and your attempt to make some random connection to the city just comes off as lame. The judge will be more impressed to know that you know of him, in spite his random location, and are eager to work for him.
My last advice would be to take control of the application process. Be proactive in building relationships with people who may be able to help you, and don't be shy about asking for their help (i.e., letters, phone calls, emails, whatever). Also, focus on applying to the best judges, regardless of their location. It may be better to have clerked for the best judge in the 7th Cir., then some random judge in the 9th or 2nd (unless maybe you plan to live and die in the 9th or 2nd Cir).
I think 2:56, 10:48, and 9:01 all make worthwhile contributions. Be creative about your applications and talk to anyone who might be able to give you insight about a particular locality or judge. The alums who agree to let students contact them are good resources--don't be afraid to shoot an email asking advice. We're happy to give it.
Keep in mind that clerking in some random place is not a bad thing. It can open more doors (it did in my case). You might actually have fun and reconsider what kind of lawyer you want to be and where you want to work. It's hard to know the answers to those questions when you're still in law school.
oh for god's sake. i graduated #10 a few years ago and clerked twice. once in flyover country and once not. unless you think you are going to the supremes, the office of the solicitor general, or to teach at yale, NOBODY cares where your appellate clerkship was. yes, you went ivy undergrad and boalt for law school, and you know what? your pedigree will not suffer for having 10th cir, tulsa on it. it shows a little humility, which law students and lawyers all need.
i applied for 100 clerkships the first time, got over 15 interviews, lots in places where i had little interest and had NO connection. yes, i did better in the flyover state where i grew up, but i got calls from all over middle america. unless you're in the top 5 people in the class--and even if you are-- you should probably get yourself okay with moving ANYWHERE if you really want to clerk. the quality of your letters absolutely matters, and having profs call to express interest in a specific job really helps too. but if you and 30 of your classmates call judge paez, you're not all getting interviews--it's time to get real with yourself. be strategic and lose your ego. pick a few good judges in middle american cities you find acceptable and have calls made to them too. my husband and i had a great year in our middle american city, and put a lot of cash away to boot because rent was cheap. the world will not end if you live for a year in a city that lacks a coast.
Outside of top 10%, it will be very difficult to get selected for an interview with appellate judges or district judges in non-flyover cities unless you have a professor (or other connection) calling on your behalf.
Or, in my case, you can be top 10% and have professors calling on your behalf, and still get no interviews. Anywhere. So it's definitely a crapshoot.
The one piece of advice I would give people freaking out about rankings and clerkships is to cool down. Getting hired is not like applying to law school. Chambers are an intimate environment and judges want to work with humans, not statistics. I was not top 10%, yet landed two clerkships (one district, one appellate) in two competitive places (both coasts). The secret? I was myself. I wrote passionate cover letters, meticulously researched the judges, applied to individuals with whom I had something in common, and networked my butt off. It paid off. Please don't let grades dissuade you. I'm firmly convinced ANYONE at Boalt can clerk - you just have to put your best foot forward, a process that involves introspection. Think about why you are doing this, and think about what you have to offer (in terms of skill sets) and, most importantly, what you want to learn the experience. And cast a wide net.
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