The Requested No-Offer Survey
Update 08/27/2009: We're just not getting enough "no offer" responses to be meaningful . . . sorry to say that unless something changes, I'm unlikely to publish what I do have. I realize that's a drag for those who participate (thank you!) so if you email me I'll happily share. If are a 2L, the same goes - I'm happy to talk with you in person.
I'm timid to do this, because I don't want to out anyone and because I don't want to contribute to a general state of unrest. On the other hand, several people have pointed out that it would be helpful to 2L's to know whether they are interviewing with firms that no-offered the class of 2010.
So, I'm going to do it. Before we get going here I want you to know that the survey linked below is entirely anonymous. Further, I will only publish the results if we get a decent response (say, more than 25 firms). Fewer than that means (a) the response rate is too low to be helpful, and (b) 2L's would be better off doing their own research by asking 3L's individually. Which they should be doing anyway.
Click here for the survey. Boalt 3L's only, please.
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I'm timid to do this, because I don't want to out anyone and because I don't want to contribute to a general state of unrest. On the other hand, several people have pointed out that it would be helpful to 2L's to know whether they are interviewing with firms that no-offered the class of 2010.
So, I'm going to do it. Before we get going here I want you to know that the survey linked below is entirely anonymous. Further, I will only publish the results if we get a decent response (say, more than 25 firms). Fewer than that means (a) the response rate is too low to be helpful, and (b) 2L's would be better off doing their own research by asking 3L's individually. Which they should be doing anyway.
Click here for the survey. Boalt 3L's only, please.
Labels: OCIP/Employment
posted by Patrick Bageant at 12:09 PM
12 Comments:
Thanks, Patrick.
Wait... is this for firms that completely no-offered their class, or firms that no-offered some people?
I think pretty much every firm gave out a much lower percentage of offers than normal. And there's no indication that some firms that offered lower rates this year would offer the same lower rates next year. If anything, when business picks up, they'll need more people next year to make up for their lack of hiring last year.
Are people farsighted enough to realize this matters? I wonder how many people will still be fawning over Latham despite their layoffs of first year associates.
Are people farsighted enough? Beats me. But they should be. Being no-offered isn't fun. I imagine getting laid off isn't fun either.
I think a better question is whether 2Ls will even be able to choose between firms.
I bet this years OCIP more closely resembles past years clerkship hiring rather than past years OCIPs.
For the person complaining about people not being far-sighted, I don't think that's entirely fair. Ideally, folks wouldn't have to be picking between one firm that laid off first years and another firm that no-offered numerous summer associates, but it is not immediately obvious which one of those ought to be considered preferable. It's all good to know, and neither makes a firm automatically undesirable as, again, there is no guarantee that firms that laid people off or no-offered will do so again in the future (they may actually be in a better position to be hiring than firms that didn't do those things). We could argue 'til the cows come home about what choices firms SHOULD have made IN THIS ECONOMY (see, e.g., every Above The Law comment thread for the last 9 months), but it's not at all clear what long-term take-away points current students are supposed to be taking down right now. It's sort of a rough, confusing time.
Honestly, I don't really think that this survey would serve a very useful purpose. The questions asked are too crude. Situations vary. People vary. Simply saying that I was offered(no-offered) at X, doesn't really mean anything other than there was less than a 100% offer percentage. I really think that 2Ls who are interested should find people who have worked in the office, or at lest the firm, where they may be considering. This may take a little bit of leg work, but you'd get a much better picture of the office and firm by doing so.
12:50 is absolutely, completely, 100% correct. My advice to 2L's, if they want it, is to interview where you want, go to callbacks where you can, and (hopefully) come up with a list of offers. Then talk to 3L's who worked in the firms from which you are considering accepting an offer.
The survey doesn't have an option for what my firm did. They gave us all offers, but said they can't tell us start dates until April at the latest.
My Minneapolis-based firm gave offers to 14 out of 44 summers. Incidentally, 14/44 is .318, which is also former Minnesota Twins great Kirby Puckett's career batting average. My money is that's how they picked the number.
interview where you want
I think people were asking for this survey because they believed it would be a useful tool in deciding where they want to interview (seems like interview slots are hard to come by this year).
Something else to consider is which firms froze salaries versus which didn't. While first-year salary would remain the same, at some firms you will become a second-year associate and make the same salary as a first-year associate - while your classmates at another firm get a hefty salary bump. Granted, it's still a lot of money; but when all the firms are generally pretty equal in all other ways, it's a good idea to be armed with the knowledge of which firms (a) might lay you off 4 months after you started when times get tough; (b) are more likely to not give you an offer at the end of your summer, and (c) will not pay you at the market rate after your first year.
Yes, it is a more difficult market. But I think for those of you who do have options to choose from, the more knowledge the better - and you'll have the power to "discipline" the firms that are making layoff/no offer/salary freeze decisions. Capitalism, baby!
-'08 alum.
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