Resume Tips
Congrats on the bar takers for finishing (unless you're still on the phone with ExamSoft). And now for something completely different.
Year in and year out, people list "Travel" or some variation of it as an "Interest" on their resumes. The priceless Disco Stu (whose prior OCIP tips are here), has the following gchat status this morning, with which I could not agree more:
Year in and year out, people list "Travel" or some variation of it as an "Interest" on their resumes. The priceless Disco Stu (whose prior OCIP tips are here), has the following gchat status this morning, with which I could not agree more:
I wish people would stop listing "travel" as an interest on their resume. "Oh, you like vacationing in the Caribbean do you, what a unique and intriguing tidbit of individuality. Do you also enjoy cash?"I am mentioning this in part in jest, but in part seriously. We rarely think about the collection of resumes that attorneys and recruiters see during interview season. And believe me, a lot of you list travel as an interest. So, I would strongly suggest all the 2Ls getting ready for OCIP to carefully think about any interests they may have listed on the resume and eliminate any that are actually fairly generic and hardly reflective of your individuality.
Labels: OCIP/Employment
posted by Armen Adzhemyan at 9:12 AM
37 Comments:
I agree. I used to have something generic on mine, and then decided to change it to something more personal. My resume lists various cricket clubs and shooting clubs that I am a member of, and over 95% of my interviews start with someone wanting to know more about either cricket or skeet shooting... mostly cricket. I would view the interests sections as more of a small talk facilitator than anything else.
I remember wondering before OCIP whether this mattered. Having been on the other side of the desk now, I'll say, don't stress out about it, but the interests section really can affect an interviewer's impression of a person, as Armen suggests.
It's great if you happen to hit on an interest of the interviewer's, of course (and by the way, for fear of that, never, ever lie). But barring that, I think the secret might be to avoid being boring (travel) and also to avoid being cutesy or self-consciously quirky (the Bee Gees). Both skeet shooting and cricket are fantastic. If travel is your one and true passion, just don't use that word, list a continent, or backpacking, or snorkeling, or anything.
Might it be a good idea to update the previous post about the relative grade preferences of California firms? I found that post helpful when I was bidding last year. It's a little stressful, but better to be a little stressed than waste a bid on firms that are out of your range.
You like money AND sex? You're tripping me out, dude.
A common n00b error is to try to give the interviewer an accurate picture of what you do in your spare time. Your interests should not be the top three things that you spend the most time on (e.g., reading, food, wine tasting, cooking, hiking, running). Instead, you want to provide conversation pieces. Consequently, your interests should be things that (1) will make your interviewer ask questions and (2) you can carry a conversation about. 11:48 is absolutely right. Instead of "reading", put a particular type of literature that you have knowledge about (e.g., Russian Literature).
If you list Russian Literature, you should really know Russian Literature. Your interviewer might have written a dissertation on Russian Literature.
As far as grades go, 12:39 is right. Some firms have fairly strict grade cutoffs. You should know what these cutoffs are. That way you don't have 10 interviews with firms that are unlikely to hire you. For example, if your grades aren't that good and your interviews are with Keker, Munger, Irell, and Wachtell, then you might be in trouble.
My interests include "comic books, Bruce Springsteen, and Diet Coke." I have been asked about at least one of those things in every interview. Of course, I also don't have a job, so take that for what it's worth.
Don't list any interests on your resume. There is little upside to it, and lots of downside.
OMG DAN, please take Diet Coke off your list. I'm posting anonymously here because your resume came up at our end of summer dinner as an example of awful things people put on their resumes that contributed to killing an offer. The recruiting committee member didn't say specifically the person came from Boalt or a name, etc. (I never would have believed her if she did), but I definitely find it hard to believe there are two people that have put that.
Biglaw: where meaningless bullshit is taken way too seriously.
wow, corporate lawyers are kinda douchey
I never really understood the "interests" section of a resume, and I've never had one. Wouldn't your employer rather see the space used for something useful, like "I can rule the world from microsoft excel"?
Yes, everyone wants to work with non-boring people, but I'm pretty sure that the "interests" section of a resume isn't a very reliable path to finding "interesting people."
Working in Biglaw "isn't a very reliable path to finding 'interesting' people."
If you think otherwise, you are fooling yourself.
Anyone else hoping for a clerkship-related post? Hint hint, N&B powers-that-be.
Oh, and my resume lists my interests as (1) travel, (2) money, and (3) not working hard. I think the third is the key.
@10:57, thanks for the tip. Those kinds of things definitely strike different people in different ways, but you are probably right that Diet Coke is out there enough that it's more risky than beneficial. I do know that I got some callbacks because of--and not in spite of--my love for Diet Coke, though. It is the official soft drink of corporate America, after all.
I think this illustrates a larger point, which is that there is a cost to listing "interesting" interests, especially in a down economy. But they can also be a huge benefit. As with any form of writing, it really just depends on who reads your stuff and whether it clicks with them. The more out there you get, the more benefit you derive when someone actually gets you, but by the same token, you can more easily end up as the negative example at some dinner party. It's all in the game.
7:18, I think if you round it out with "(4) after hours tequila shots," the world will be your oyster.
I started a thread for you, above.
I disagree with Patrick. Interests give your interviewer an easy way to make conversation and an easy way to remember you. If your grades are on the cusp, this can make a big difference.
People with stellar grades don't really have to worry about being remembered. As long as you were nice in the interview, the interviewer will recommend a callback based on your 5HHs.
But if you are on the cusp, the interviewer's feedback can have a strong influence on whether you get a callback. So you want to be remembered in a positive way. "The kid who plays the base guitar" is a lot more memorable than "that kid who enjoyed torts." Plus, if you get lucky and have an interviewer with a similar interest it can be a great way to build rapport and leave a strong impression.
Patrick likely doesn't have this problem because his background before law school was very interesting. The rest of us have to make do with an interests section.
Register this as another vote in favor of interest sections, as long as they take up only one line in your resume.
Let's be honest. 75% of biglaw applicants have nearly identical resumes: a good undergraduate degree, a small gap of work experience before law school, some journal or law school activity, and a public interest summer job.
Now imagine having to look through fifty of those resumes in a row. Can't you see how they would blur together? Having an interest that is actually interesting is a life-saver for the bored interviewer.
As for Dan, I doubt that he was dinged for "Diet Coke." (I won't speculate on other reasons!) Sure, it's hokey and a little smart-alecky. But if the point of an interest section is to make yourself stand out and give an interviewer something to talk about, then it seemed to have worked.
Please, please, please can we have a new/updated post on grade preferences of firms for OCIP, or at minimum a bump of the old ones.
Which firms do you want to know about?
Irell and Munger have stiff grade requirements. You will want mostly HHs, some Hs are ok. Awards won't hurt. Keker is likely somewhere up there as well.
Covington, Gibson and, Latham are next. Latham may have been less selective than usual last year. Maybe Kirkland is up here as well. You will want a mix of HHs and Hs. One or two Ps can be overcome, but you would want at least around 6H's total (with an HH = 2 Hs).
OMM has cutoffs around there, perhaps bit below.
Thanks, 2:52. My grades are a lot lower than that, though. I'm talking nary an H in sight. So I probably should look a little bit lower on the list than Covington or Latham.
This advice is a few years out of date (Class of 2009), but probably still holds at least some water. As a Boaltie, you will likely find other major markets (e.g. New York, DC, Chicago) to be significantly less competitive than the Bay Area.
If your goal is primarily to work at a "ranked" firm or to get paid the market salary, and you're not beholden to staying in California, think about targeting some of these other cities. Their legal markets are, for the most part, bigger and firms' practice areas are more diverse (i.e. less IP-centric). Plus, as one of the few Boalties willing to leave California, you may find yourself in the enviable position of being a scarce commodity. New York and DC firms, in general, do not seem to care if you have some special "connection" with their cities either - not so in smaller markets.
Again, class sizes have shrunk since the summer of '08, but they may be on an upswing. And if you've never left California, why not broaden your horizons?
@4:27: Thanks for the thoughtful response. I appreciate it and will be following your advice.
Follow up from 4:27 - do your homework, the extra effort you put in will not go unrewarded. Make a serious effort to learn (from Vault guides, firm websites, etc) what the 2-3 practice areas are where a firm is most strong/what they are most proud of.
Expressing an interest in those areas and being able to discuss a couple of their recent big cases/deals in broad terms, or knowing the name of a prominent attorney or two at the firm, will really give you a leg up. And if the firm releases their interviewers' names ahead of time (even morning of interview), find out as much as you can about that person so you can ask tailored questions.
Grades count for a lot, but sincere (or at least persuasive) interest and enthusiasm can often make up for otherwise lackluster credentials.
Additionally, know about the particular office. It is brutal to say you are interested in the firm's real estate practice only to hear them say that practice is not in the office for which you are interviewing. Reach out to boalt alums in the office you are interested in if you are particularly into one office.
Late chiming in, but I'd just like to throw my vote in for the interest section. The partner I worked for in college once told me in confidence that he hired one associate over his equally matched rival strictly because he shared an interest in fly fishing. Fly fishing - who knew?
To join the chorus, don't waste your bids on firms that are out of your range. The bidding process can be important, and particularly at a challenging time like this one, you should be primarily focused on getting yourself interviews that have a significant chance of leading to a job. I know it's uninspiring advice, but I wish someone had said this to me a few years ago.
Interests likely won't help you get a callback but they may help you during callback interviews. Lots of associates who interview will ask questions about a candidate's interests.
I'd echo that you should use your bids on firms that match up with your grades. The gradebook in the CDO office isn't very useful (most firms say they want a mix of HHs and Hs, which would exclude most people from getting a job), but the Vault guide gives an accurate picture. Also avoid IP-focused firms if you're not interested in IP. It seems obvious, but I wasn't the only person last year who made that mistake. Finally, shoot for firms with larger offices and bigger summer programs, unless you really like a smaller firm. The combo of a large summer class and good interview skills can help pull you over the hump of mediocre grades.
Most importantly, while you need to be well spoken, confident and professional, don't be a douche or a prototype. Be yourself. Don't kowtow by telling the interviewer you want to do exactly what they do. You don't. Unless you do, in which case be ready to pick their brains and ask intelligent questions. Be conversant, smile, breathe. You will be fine. I promise. For those of you who are really impressive people, be humble, even self-depricating. People like that. Use your social skills, your charm, your wit. And if you don't have those things, fake it. Most of this should be obivous, but really, these are things you do every day to engage people and make friends. Keep doing it. You will be fine.
I'm one of those "non-traditional" students who is way older than the rest of you, and I had a fair bit of hiring experience (mostly MBA's, but some JD's, PhD's, etc.) in my prior career, so I'll chime in. I think "Interests" can be great things, because callback interviewers will often have a full "batch day" of round 2 interviewees, and by the 8th person of the day, you'd rather scratch your own eyes out than hear one more story about how running Model United Nations in college taught you about leadership. Someone who has a slightly quirky interest (e.g., cricket-- not "reading") breaks up the monotony and gives you something to latch onto that at least has the potential to be semi-interesting. Interests also tend to bring out the funny stories, and there's nothing an interviewer likes better than actually sharing a laugh with an interviewee-- makes him/her feel like "this is a potential colleague I could work with." Just my $.02
For those of you cricket haters out there, please take notice of the number of people that find cricket interesting. Suck it.
Say what you will about cricket, it does better things for a resume than Model UN.
i'm interested in crickets, the nocturnal animals related to grasshoppers. okay to mention?
Altsh@ler Berzon is asking for transcripts BEFORE it will schedule OCIP interviews. They claim that they have a "waitlist" of available interview slots. I don't know if this is a mistake (from someone who doesn't know Boalt's OCIP policy), or an attempt to end-run the policy.
Here's the e-mail:
"You are receiving this email because you are on the waitlist to
interview with Altsh@ler Berzon LLP on Thursday, 8/26. There is a
chance that we will be able to conduct shortened interviews with a fewpeople from the waitlist during breaks while we are on campus. If you would like to be considered, please send your transcript or list of classes and grades to me by tomorrow at noon. Please also let me know what your availability is next Thursday."
Forward it to TG in career services.
I just spent the past two week screening hundreds of clerkship applications, and I would like to follow up on the discussion here.
I have changed my mind. The personal interests section is a good thing. Your resume needs SOMETHING to set you aside from the dozens of people who are equally qualified, and to the degree your personal interests section does that, it can be gold. To the degree it makes you look just like them, it is a waste of space.
My suggestion is to avoid the overly broad (e.g., "hiking" or "cooking" or "Spanish"). The dozens of people you are up against likely listed the exact same things – do you have any idea how many law students include “hiking” on their resume? Instead, make it your own. For example, "hiking in mountainous and forested areas" caught our eye. So did "cooking fish, but not too much."
You get the idea. Good luck!
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