You could be getting course credit for this!
As part of my ongoing effort to have a heart attack before I'm 30, I read the Drudge Report every day. Imagine my surprise when today, I clicked on a random link and saw dear ol' Dean Edley staring quizically back at me! It seems our illustrious Dean has made national news by advocating a fully-online degree program at UC Berkeley. (Drudge's reasons for posting this remain mysterious, as it neither induces panic about the deficit nor refers to a place that is unusually cold for the season.) An excerpt reflecting the two sides of this issue:
But, of course, there are downsides. My college experience was made up of more than simply watching lectures and taking tests. In fact, I learned far more from the people around me, extra-curricular activities, and weekend benders than I did in any of my courses. Such experiences would be nearly impossible to duplicate over the interwebs (although you still might see the occasional double-rainbow). Also, were online education to become widespread, it would likely lead to some of the dire results Boyle predicts. After all, if everyone in the country can take Con Law from Chemerinsky, why would a school bother to hire anyone else?
Online college should never replace the brick and mortar system, but that doesn't mean it has no place in a school like Berkeley. While plucky young 18-year-olds should never even think about missing out on the best four years of their lives, an online program could be a boon for qualified older students who, for whatever reason, cannot easily move to California or even leave their homes all day. Yes, they'd be missing out on some of the intangibles of higher education, but with the right admissions requirements and a real dedication to creating a great program (something better than the online Barbri system, hopefully), I think there is something of real value to be obtained from a digital Berkeley.
Now if we could only get them to consider making Nuts and Boalts a seminar course...
"We want to do a highly selective, fully online, credit-bearing program on a large scale - and that has not been done," said UC Berkeley law school Dean Christopher Edley, who is leading the effort.While I hesitate to throw my support behind anything that is absolutely certain to doom the Earth, I must admit my experience with Barbri has warmed me to the idea that online education can really work. Yes, I dread turning on that lecture every morning, but I also learn about as much from it as I did in a 120-person lecture. (Although I do miss supplementing the lecture with 20-minute debates between H*rsh and Schw*rtz about the finer points of Epstein's economic approach to Torts.) Plus, the boundary-less nature of the system means that I can learn Con Law from Chemerinsky himself, rather than whatever professor happened to teach at the school in my area. And I think an online lecture from Chemerinsky is at least of equal value to an in-person lecture from anyone else.
. . .
"We find Dean Edley's cyber campus to be just the beginning of a frightening trajectory that will undoubtedly end in the complete implosion of public higher education" in California, Berkeley doctoral student Shane Boyle testified.
But, of course, there are downsides. My college experience was made up of more than simply watching lectures and taking tests. In fact, I learned far more from the people around me, extra-curricular activities, and weekend benders than I did in any of my courses. Such experiences would be nearly impossible to duplicate over the interwebs (although you still might see the occasional double-rainbow). Also, were online education to become widespread, it would likely lead to some of the dire results Boyle predicts. After all, if everyone in the country can take Con Law from Chemerinsky, why would a school bother to hire anyone else?
Online college should never replace the brick and mortar system, but that doesn't mean it has no place in a school like Berkeley. While plucky young 18-year-olds should never even think about missing out on the best four years of their lives, an online program could be a boon for qualified older students who, for whatever reason, cannot easily move to California or even leave their homes all day. Yes, they'd be missing out on some of the intangibles of higher education, but with the right admissions requirements and a real dedication to creating a great program (something better than the online Barbri system, hopefully), I think there is something of real value to be obtained from a digital Berkeley.
Now if we could only get them to consider making Nuts and Boalts a seminar course...
posted by Dan at 10:27 AM
12 Comments:
I didn't like this idea when I first heard about it, and it has yet to grow on me.
This isn't a service to the public or to students, despite how it might be sold. The only party that gains under this program is the Berkeley law school, which will be able to make money selling recorded lectures without having to actually provide space for students. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that this idea was conceived in the registrar's office. Here are some down sides:
1. It will tend to produce even more JD's sans social skills.
2. It will increase the number of job-seekers.
3. It will further remove professors from students (I know - it' shard to imagine that's even possible).
4. It will reify the out-dated, out-moded, lecture-based aspects of education, without taking any constructive steps toward clinical or practical training.
5. It will cheapen the Berkeley Law degree. The post might have been called "The Berkeley-Phoenix Online JD Program."
In short, I see this program as a way to export mediocrity for profit. It seems very un-Boalt, and I would be disappointed to see it come to fruition.
On the plus side, perhaps Nancy Kato will finally be able to work from home.
Anyone who truly supports greater access to quality higher education should support this. Online education is not likely to replace the physical classroom itself. Those that are the most likely to benefit from online education are those that simply cannot afford to attend classes for whatever reason. There are many opportunity costs to attending classes that many people cannot take on. While increasing funding to the school might lower tuition and increase those who have access, more money to the school does not address all those opportunity costs. This proposal would really increase access to higher education.
11:14 is right, at least in principle.
The thing is, I can almost PROMISE you that an online degree from Berkeley Law will cost an arm and a leg more than a classroom-based degree from any of this country's dozens of lower-ranked state schools.
Our school made clear some time ago that providing low-cost access to legal education is NOT its mission. There used to be a school that did that, called "Boalt Hall." Berkeley Law is competing Columbia, NYU, and Stanford. I don't think there is any way to have it both ways.
Two things:
1) I believe the article only mentioned an online UC system, not an online Boalt. Patrick, do you have any specific info suggesting that Boalt would be a part of this, aside from Dean Edley's participation and common sense? I don't doubt it; just wondering if there's an article somewhere.
2) Relatedly, does anyone know why DE is so involved in this in the first place? It seems beyond the scope of his duties as Dean of law school. Although, as Patrick points out, I suppose it could fall under "fund raising."
Busted. I didn't actually read Dan's article. I was going entirely off of what I read about this last winter, where the discussion was about using Berkeley's name to help market it.
Maybe they have abandoned that idea (and I hope they have).
11:14 here,
The degrees that would be offered are undergrad degrees.
Value of a degree from Berkeley is (1) relationships you make, (2) some selectivity, and only (3) things you might happen to learn.
Online degree only does one of these things, devalues a second, and does a third less well.
How does an online degree do labs in science courses? Discussion in seminar? (Second is feasible, admittedly, but I think inferior in electronic environment to 'real thing)
BarBri is effective because it's teaching one thing: pass a test with mediocrity. It's hear-memorize-regurgitate at its finest. That isn't (I hope) what we want for higher education.
Thumbs down.
I totally disagree. For lack of a better way, I'm going to do the tried-and-true point-by-point re-spon-se to Patrick's points.
1. Law school isn't where you go to learn social skills. That's what college is for. The average age of our class our 1L year was 25.5. Dean Tom said this has crept up to 26.2 for this last year's class. If you don't know how to socially function at that age, then I don't know what to tell you. Plus, how much social skill do you develop in the classroom anyway? That's what journals, organizations, and bar review is for.
2. This point strikes me as silly. If actual causation is your thing, then I might counter that it's actually new colleges, the recession and child-birth that increase the number of job seekers.
3. I agree to a point, but I'm not so sure how much more students can be removed from professors. Plus, online education isn't replacing classroom education. If you want professor interaction, there you go.
4. I didn't know what reify meant before I looked it up, and I'm not sure I do now either. But I do know that if anything, online education would INCREASE the opportunity for clinical and practical training. Being able to attend class on your own time, and giving clinical and practical opportunities actual priority will only produce better lawyers. Another related benefit would be that you finally get to take con law with future supreme court justice Goodwin Liu, instead of hoping you can "get a spot in his class next year". There are several classes I wanted to take but couldn't because of scheduling conflicts with other classes and seating availability.
5. This argument will sound silly in 10 years. If Berkeley, Boalt specifically, were to offer online courses, it would change the image of online education. Of course, it may make Boalt's brand appear weaker or whatever, so they might have to market it as something else. Though it doesn't matter to me, I realize our prestige and selectivity is worth something to people, and I can understand that. But when people hide behind the pedigree and their degree, I always just imagine Andy from the Office.
Anyway, if this were offered at Boalt, and we had a choice of going into the classroom or watching videos from home, I definitely would not abandon the classroom. But I also wouldn't hesitate to take early morning or Friday classes, and attend from the comfort of my living room, pantless. And I wouldn't have to worry about getting a seat in a class when registering, or taking two classes scheduled concurrently. I imagine some people would never come into class, and hey, more power to them. I fail to see how this cheapens our degree, or is a bad idea. For what we pay, we should get options. If having more choices, more time, and more flexibility were a bad thing to me, then I would be an Apple fan.
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^^^ Stupid Blogspot.
Thank you for sharing us this information. I agree that online education really work. I guess it’s really hard to find the ideal way of teaching and learning. But it is still a good thing to use the old method of learning like lectures since it involves different senses for learning.
That is profound, coming from someone who writes spam for a living.
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