Monday, August 26, 2013

Are You Employed, Sir?

UPDATE:  I am moving this up in case there is any follow-up discussion to be had.  I have two points to make:  First, make sure that your resume reflects correct contact information.  You'd be surprised how often this is an issue.  Second, I went back and checked the blog's various OCIP threads over the years for an informal study.  I simply tabulated the number of firms listed each year on the blog.  Not very scientific as I'm sure CDO has more accurate figures.  But the trend is remarkable.  Here is the graph, followed by the numbers:

Year Firms
2007 120
2008 127
2009 99
2010 98
2011 82
2012 72
2013 71

I will be traveling later today so don't expect any updates or anything but what I would consider fascinating is having Boalt's average fees for each of those years.  If anyone is bored enough to collect that data, I'd be happy to revise the table and graph.    

* * *
Ah yes, it's that time of the year.  Ostensibly, you expect to see the best in people--their sharpest suits, brightest smiles, politest manners--but you end up with elevator gossip, transfer-hate, and enough anxiety to fill some area of large volume.  This is now the ninth year we've done a post on the on-campus interview process, which for whatever random reason is now called EIW.  Sounds more like a tax credit I should claim.  I'll try to use the contemporary terminology, but I apologize in advance for reverting to the old OCIP (pronounced Oh-Sip) term.  Every year, there's plenty of sage advice on the meaning of this interview process.  I can't really add much more to the threads of years past.  I'll just repeat some key points that everyone should keep in mind.
  • If you came to law school thinking you're guaranteed a place in Big Law, you made a mistake in your calculations.  Just in the past 10 years, firms like Brobeck, Thelen, Howrey, Heller, Dewey LeBoeuf, etc. have collapsed.  These were not start ups, but old firms that had been around for decades (if not longer).  Many had made summer associate and associate offers.  Then?  Poof.  Moral of the story?  Expect firms to be conservative in their hiring.  
  • Hiring is not a zero sum game.  There is a LOT that goes into the decision to extend call back offers and then summer offers and yet again full time offers.  If you can go through the process with a positive attitude, congratulations, you're already a success.  When something unfortunate happens, like a law firm collapsing just before the start of the summer program, those who are not assholes tend to be the ones who land on their feet.  Don't let the negativity surrounding EIW infect you.  (Insert reference to The Walking Dead about how we're all already infected).  
  • There are 8 million fine lines, you should be prepared to walk all of them simultaneously.  The toughest one is probably the fine line between maintaining your personality, while appearing marketable.  The extremes are easy to define:  if your personality is to shower once a week, then I strongly recommend ditching that personality and adopting some basic hygiene; or if you have a healthy sense of humor, don't suppress it just because someone said you should never crack a joke during an interview.  The harder cases are the gray areas.  There's no right or wrong answer here, it's just something you should ponder. 
This isn't meant to be some sort of an Eastern thing.  Just my ranting.  With that out of the way, here are the rules.


1. We will take comments posted below regarding offers/rejections [REVISED: for call back interviews] and incorporate them into the body of this post. The process is tedious and generally not fun. There's a lot you can do to expedite things along.



4. Post the offers/rejections in the following format:

Firm name, Office, +/- to indicate offer/rejection respectively. For example:

Orrick, SF +.
The location abbreviations are as follows:
Atl -- Atlanta; Bos -- Boston; Chi -- Chicago; Dal -- Dallas; DC -- DC; EBay -- East Bay locations (Oakland, Walnut Creek, etc.); LA -- LA area offices (includes Century City); Mia = Miami and South Florida; Minn -- Minnesota; NY -- New York/New Jersey; OC -- Orange County area offices; Por -- Portland; Sac -- Sacramento; SD -- San Diego; SF -- San Francisco; SV -- Silicon Valley offices (includes Palo Alto, San Jose, Menlo Park, and all other South Bay locations).
5. This is now the ninth EIW that N&B has had this thread. Without failure, each previous thread contained comments that were ummm worthy of staying up. So, while we will delete comments that are only posting +/-, more substantive comments will stay up. At the same time, it's probably wise not to identify yourself to your prospective employers. So don't write anything silly that's going to reveal who you are.

Best of luck to all of you, but for the love all that is holy and good, please follow Rules 2 and 3.


Akin Gump, LA +
Arnold & Porter, LA -, SF +
Baker Botts, SV +
Baker McKenzie, SF +
Bingham, LA +/-, SF +/-, SV +
Boies Schiller, Oak -
Bryan Cave, LA +, SF +/-
Cadwalader, DC +, NY +
Cleary, DC+, NY +/-
Cravath, +
Cooley, Den +, NY +/-, SF +/-, SV +/-
Covington, DC +
Crowell, OC +/-, SF +
Davis Polk, NY +/-, SV +
Davis Wright, Sea -
Dechert, NY +
Drinker Biddle & Reath, SF -
DLA Piper, LA -, SV +
Fenwick & West, SF -, Sea +/-, SV +
Foley, LA +, SF -
Garvey Schubert, Sea +
Gibson Dunn, NY +, SF -
Goodwin Proctor, LA -, SF +/-, SV -
Gunderson, SV +
Haynes & Boone, Dal +, SV -
Hogan & Lovells, LA +, SF +, SV +
Holland & Knight, SF +
Irell, LA +, OC -
Jenner & Block, Chi -
Jones Day, LA +, NY +/-, OC -, SF -, SV +
King & Spalding, NY +, SF +, SV +
Kirkland & Ellis, LA -, SF +/-
K&L Gates, LA +
Kramer Levin, NY _
Latham LA +, NY +/-, SF +/-
Littler Mendelson, SF +
Manatt, LA -
Mayer Brown, LA +
McDermott, SV +/-
McKool Smith, SV +
Milbank, LA +
Morgan Lewis, SV +
MoFo, LA +, SF +/-
Munger, +
Nixon Peabody, SF +
O'Melveny, CC -, LA +/-, SF +/-
Orrick, LA +, SF +, SV -
PaulHastings, LA +/-, NY -, SF +/-, SV -
Perkins Coie, SV -
Pillsbury, NY +/-, SF +
Proskauer, LA +/-, NY +
Quinn Emanuel, SV +
Reed Smith, LA +, SF +/-
Robbins Gellar, SD +/-
Ropes & Gray, SF +, NY +
Rutan Tucker, OC +
Schiff Hardin, SF -
Sedgwick, LA +
Shearman & Sterling, NY -, SF +
Sheppard Mullin, LA +, OC +, SF +/-, SV +
Sidley, Chi -, DC -, LA +/-, SF +/-
Simpson Thatcher, NY +, SV +/-
Stradling, OC +
Skadden, LA +, NY +/-, SV +/-
Sullivan Cromwell, SV +
Vinson & Elkins, Dal +
Wachtell +/-
Wilson Sonsini, SV +/-
Weil, NY +, SV +
White & Case, LA -, NY +, SV +
Wilmer, LA +, NY +/-, SV +/-



Anonymous Anonymous said...

What about callbacks?

8/07/2013 10:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Baker Botts SV +

10:26, I believe this is callback offers.

8/07/2013 10:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm surprised there hasn't been word from K&E...

8/10/2013 8:29 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sigh. Paul Hastings, I wish you would call SOMEONE.

8/10/2013 9:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Skadden, LA +

8/10/2013 9:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ 9:48... Did you receive the CB invite today?

8/10/2013 9:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not 9:48 but I received the Skadden LA call yesterday afternoon.

8/10/2013 10:08 AM  
Blogger Armen said...

Just a friendly, passive-aggressive reminder to please obey RULE 2. Also, don't forget to post amusing interview stories. There are always a handful of firms who send interviewers who have no business interviewing anyone. Hilarity/awkwardness ensues.

8/10/2013 12:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anyone else still have no callbacks?

8/10/2013 12:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm a transfer student here at Boalt. I was interviewing with Irell for their Newport Beach office and the interviewer congratulated me on transferring and said it was the right decision to make. He then followed that up by letting me know that he wouldn't have been in the same room as me if I had not transferred. Charming.

8/10/2013 12:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ 12:36

No callbacks for me, either. Judging by the list above, at least half of the firms I've interviewed with have already sent out their callback invitations.

8/10/2013 12:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone hear from Latham?

8/10/2013 12:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Re: Latham. I had what seemed to be a really solid interview with them and the interviewer ended things by saying that they would be sending out CBs in a couple of days and that I'd hear from him then.

8/10/2013 12:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone hear from Jones Day SF?

8/10/2013 12:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Proskauer Rose NYC.

8/10/2013 1:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Quinn CB dinner

8/10/2013 2:19 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

12:39 -- sounds like the interviewers bedside manners could use some improvement and that's definitely not the most relevant conversation you can have in an interview. The underlying point though is not wrong. In the past several years, the downturn in the economy combined with DE's decision to increase the number of transfers to pad the cash flow has created a very strong incentive among firms to cut recruiting at regional schools. Why send a team, at tremendous cost and money, to XYZ law school when the students you'd be interested in at XYZ are at Boalt? Put another way, if you're a top 10 student at XYZ, you have far fewer opportunities than if you transferred to Boalt with those same grades. Still odd to talk about this at an interview.


2:19 -- I'm keeping your post up as a bit of a warning sign to others. There's no point to posting about call back dinners. But if you are invited to a dinner, please use it as an opportunity to learn more about the firm and to allow the attorneys to learn more about you.

8/10/2013 4:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Armen, I find the info about dinner invitations useful. They may not be a CB, but I think it's fair to assume that if you weren't invited to the dinner (I wasn't), your odds of receiving a CB are somewhere between slim and none.

FWIW, I've heard that Gibson Dunn gave out dinner invites, as well.

8/10/2013 4:47 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

4:47, for the past 10 years, there are a handful of firms who always invite some candidates to dinner. Gibson and Quinn have always been among those firms. What does the fact that dinner invites have been extended by firms that always have dinner invites tell you precisely? The value is knowing which firms have dinners and which don't, isn't it? So, I'm not persuaded and won't post dinner invite info.

[Snark ahead] What's next, people being surprised by the Orrick phone call rejection?

8/10/2013 5:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@armen. i was not at the quinn dinner but someone who was there confirmed that it was an indeed a cb dinner, as in everyone who was there was told that they are getting a cb.

8/10/2013 5:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Armen: Well, if a firm has sent out dinner invites and you didn't receive one, it's very likely you won't be receiving a CB invite from that firm. It's nice to know this so that you can let go of hope for that particular firm and focus your attention elsewhere. That has similar value to knowing which firms have sent out CB invites...

8/10/2013 5:30 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

I understand the point. But the value of the information is knowing which firms have dinners for candidates and which don't. It sounds like folks don't know that Quinn, Gibson, and others routinely have dinners for candidates, year in and year out. That's why I was scratching my head. In any event, this is meant to be informative to you. So if folks want to post about dinners, post away in the comments. I just won't transfer them to the main post since that's my time and energy. Fair compromise?

8/10/2013 5:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

RE: CB dinners, I was at the Quinn dinner as well, and one of the interviewers I was chatting with mentioned that though being at the dinner is a VERY GOOD sign (like he needed to say it), it's also partly a function of when you were interviewed - he mentioned that interviewing at the beginning of the day, he gives out callback dinner invites easier, whereas at the end of the day, they just literally might not have any more envelopes even if they like you better than the 9A person. I've heard of people going to dinner/no callback, not going to dinner/getting a callback other years, so I wouldn't completely lose hope (esp. if you were the last of the day at QE and didn't cop that invite - may have just been out of 'em).

8/10/2013 5:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Latham -

8/10/2013 9:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ 9:13p latham: which office, and when/how did you hear?

8/10/2013 10:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

9:13 PM Snail Mail and NY office. Dated yesterday.

8/10/2013 10:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Latham LA +

8/10/2013 11:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@11:15pm, did you receive your Latham callback through email, phone, or snail mail? (Wondering whether they're slow because they're doing everything by snail mail).

8/10/2013 11:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@11:32pm, got Latham by phone less than 24 hours after the interview

8/11/2013 9:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Has anyone heard from Latham SF?

8/11/2013 9:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ 9:44 - Which office was this for?

8/11/2013 10:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Read the thread before you post. Christ.

8/11/2013 10:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ 10:27: I'm not 9:44, but it appears to be the LA office.

@ 10:40 (and everyone): OCI is a stressful time, but please try to stay positive and be kind to fellow Boalties. Just a gentle reminder. :]

8/11/2013 11:33 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@12:38 when did you hear?

8/11/2013 7:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ 7:20 p.m. I got a call from the interviewers at 11:50 a.m. (Sunday 8/11/13)

8/11/2013 10:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

8:10, when did you get the Latham SF?

8/12/2013 8:24 AM  
Blogger Armen said...

My apologies for deleting 8:10's comment. Normally if a post is part of a dialogue I try not to delete it. Anyway, it posted a Latham SF +, in case it wasn't obvious to anyone.

8/12/2013 8:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Latham SF callback came Friday (8/9) afternoon.

8/12/2013 8:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nothing from Jones Day? Weird... Also, anyone get word from Orrick?

8/12/2013 11:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jones Day told me they are sending rejections via snail mail.

8/12/2013 2:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Has anyone heard from Vinson Elkins?

8/12/2013 8:36 PM  
Anonymous K. said...

I didn't bother doing EIW. What do I put down?

8/12/2013 9:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@6:38 - was the Latham ding email or snail mail?

8/12/2013 9:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

how are profs about missing a lot of class for callbacks? it's hard not to when you're targeting other cities

8/13/2013 11:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ 11:41: it varies. Some are great about it. I've heard others remark that they don't excuse absences for callbacks because "that process should be completed by now since it's before school" (seriously).

Best advice: be proactive and approach them early, contact CDO if you encounter any issues.

8/13/2013 11:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does Arnold & Porter do snail mail or email rejections?

8/13/2013 12:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

thanks @ 11:47. helpful to know

8/13/2013 1:53 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

I don't mean to disrespect any professors, but personally, I would not give much credence to what someone with ultimate job security thinks about your decision to manage your time when it comes to forging a path to the start of your career. This is one of the most significant decisions you're going to make. Whereas what Judge Friendly thinks of a chicken is not going to matter all that much for your career. Also, isn't this the point of anonymous grading? If you can keep up with the materials, you can keep up with the materials.

8/13/2013 1:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I posted about reed smith, sf earlier. It was reed smith, sf -; not +

8/13/2013 9:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There's been a reed smith SF +, just probably not posted because of the list, so don't take that down :)

8/13/2013 9:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kirkland & Ellis, SF -

8/13/2013 9:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

9:23 - Was the K&E ding snail mail or email?

8/13/2013 9:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

9:38 - I'm a different KE ding from the poster, but mine was by email.

8/13/2013 10:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

10:19 - Thanks, I guess I'm in their "B" pile as I haven't gotten a CB or ding. Fingers crossed.

8/13/2013 10:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

9:23 @ 9:38 - email.

8/13/2013 10:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For Wilmer dings, snail mail or email?

8/14/2013 1:35 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kind and Spaulding SV +

8/14/2013 2:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Typing from phone - King*

8/14/2013 2:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Are CBs still coming in?

8/14/2013 3:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would imagine so. Robbins, Geller, Rudman, Dowd just offered CB. And no one has posted anything about Nixon Peabody, Drinker Biddle, Hanson Bridgett yet. So . . . I think some firms are just slower.

8/14/2013 3:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

^^ are you the same guy who just posted Robbins Geller, SD +? I'm trying to determine if they've already sent out multiple CBs.

8/14/2013 3:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah the same one. I don't know out if they sent out multiples.

8/14/2013 3:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Was the Pillsbury ding email or snail mail?

8/14/2013 4:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ 4:20 - by email

8/14/2013 4:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Robins Gellar, SD - (by phone)

8/14/2013 6:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

K&L La +
Fenwick Seattle +
Reed Smith La +

8/14/2013 7:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone heard from Baker & McKenzie

8/14/2013 7:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

has anyone heard from Perkins Coie?

8/15/2013 7:50 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

(as far as a callback)

8/15/2013 7:51 AM  
Blogger Armen said...

7:11, which firm is K&L?

8/15/2013 9:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Any word from Manatt?

8/15/2013 9:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

@ Armen - Not the anon who posted, but I assume that anon was referring to K&L Gates...

8/15/2013 9:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I would assume 7:11 means this K&L, K&L Gates. who I'm still waiting on :(

8/15/2013 9:47 AM  
Blogger Armen said...

You all confirmed my suspicion. Good enough for a blog.

8/15/2013 9:51 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Arnold & Porter, LA -, got an email from A&P asking me to fill out their voluntary Self Identification Form and letting me know that they will follow up with me if they wish to pursue my candidacy further. Looks like a ding.

8/15/2013 1:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

^^ Ditto Pillsbury, NY

8/15/2013 1:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

1:37 got a follow up ding after filling out the form. Arnold & Porter, LA -

8/15/2013 2:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jones Day, SF -

8/15/2013 5:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

5:09 was it via email or snail mail?

8/15/2013 5:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not 5:09, but I received a ding from Jones Day SF by email this evening.

8/15/2013 6:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone heard from Vinson & Elkins yet?

8/16/2013 12:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's time for a new thread discussing Dean Edley's resignation.

8/16/2013 3:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Source on Edley resignation?

8/16/2013 3:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know an email went just went out to (at least some) Boalt alumni announcing Dean Edley's departure as of December 31.

8/16/2013 3:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's that email.


Dear loyal alum,

Over the past twelve months, I've been asked on numerous occasions if Dean Edley is going to stay on as dean after his second five-year term expires next year. We now know that, regrettably, the answer is no. Dean Edley informed faculty and staff earlier today that, after careful consideration, he has decided to end his service to us as dean, effective December 31st.

Provost George Breslauer has asked Professor Gillian Lester to serve as acting dean during the search for his replacement, and she has graciously agreed. Professor Lester was acting dean during Dean Edley's sabbatical from December to June of this year.

The reason for this decision is two-fold. First, as some of you know, the dean had surgery in May for prostate cancer. Recent tests indicate that he needs further treatment, which he is now getting. The dean is going on medical leave through the end of the year, effective Monday, with Professor Lester moving into the acting dean role immediately thereafter.

Second, while he fully expects his doctors to remedy this malady, Dean Edley has decided that, after he returns from medical leave, he wants to turn his attention to other professional pursuits, especially education policy. He will continue at Berkeley Law as a professor.

In the meantime, while on leave, he'll continue helping with our Campaign for Boalt Hall, and he'll make himself available to work with Acting Dean Lester on special projects.

There will be time for an appropriate send-off later. But I want to take a moment to appreciate where the law school stands today because of Dean Edley's leadership.

When he stepped into this position nine years ago, he laid out four "pillars" of his Campaign for Boalt Hall. The first was to improve the law school's tired infrastructure to compete with the other top law schools in the country. The second was to expand the faculty ranks to a size befitting a top-ten law school. The third was to expand financial aid so that we can keep a law school education accessible even as tuition rises, and provide our graduates with freedom of career choice. The fourth was to strengthen and grow our research centers to help tackle some of society's most pressing issues.

Nine years later, we have achieved all the dean's goals - and more. We've expanded our clinical and professional skills programs, increased our international reach with a larger academic-year LL.M. program and a new summer LL.M. program. And we are far along in developing an exciting online education effort that will position Berkeley Law as a leader in this emerging area.

Meanwhile, we've almost reached our $125 million Campaign for Boalt Hall fundraising goal to support all of those improvements.

In short, Dean Edley is leaving us a great foundation on which to build, and he's positioned us to maintain our excellence well into the future.

We ask that you respect the dean's privacy in the days, weeks and months ahead. As always, we are here at the Alumni Center to answer any questions or concerns you might have about this news.

I'll conclude by speaking on the behalf of all of us at Berkeley Law: Thank you for your concern, support and dedication to your law school.


Robert G. Sproul
Assistant Dean for Development and Alumni Relations

8/16/2013 3:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

are we doing a separate offer thread?

8/16/2013 7:21 PM  
Blogger Armen said...

Negative, ghost rider. A call back thread does not make sense because there is effectively 0 anonymity. And we all want Boalties to shine with their prospective employers. If there's interest, I'm happy to create a follow-up thread to get a discussion going on how people felt about the process, best practices, areas of concern, that sort of thing.

8/19/2013 10:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hanson Bridgett "still seriously considering"

8/20/2013 6:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Pretty sure 6:56 AM is a ding.

8/20/2013 8:27 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Has anyone been dinged by Milbank?

8/21/2013 10:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Has anyone heard from Morgan Lewis SF?

8/25/2013 6:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Has anyone heard anything back from Baker & Hostetler?

8/26/2013 1:37 PM  
Blogger malvika said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8/26/2013 11:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shartsis +

8/27/2013 6:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Has anyone heard from Curtis Mallet?

9/10/2013 11:55 AM  
Anonymous stone said...

@8/26/2013 1:37 PM
Yes,Who are you?

9/21/2013 8:19 PM  
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