Going OSCAR Wilde
Quick clerkship question here. For the last month I have been watching judges in OSCAR hire left and right, presumably from the host of graduates and alumni who are not constrained to the hiring plan. It's frustrating to watch the alumni peck away at my judge list, but then that's the way the cookie crumbles sometimes. I know my place, and my place is the hiring plan: Boalt "adheres to the hiring plan" which means that all rising 3L's must wait until early September to apply for clerkships, with the caveat that the CDO will support early applications to judges who have been known to hire early from paper applications.
Presumably one must identify these judges by word of mouth. But by definition they all have one feature in common -- they all accept paper applications. I know that some students have already resolved to 'de-couple' their paper applications from the mass mailing melee, by sending them early. I haven't made up my mind on that one, yet, but my question is this: is it wise to forsake OSCAR? Given the tighter competition this year, would it be wise to apply early to any judge who accepts any paper application? Could it hurt me to send early paper applications to judges who accept both? Or is there some sight-unseen benefit to the hiring plan that I have yet to discover?
Scratch the above. I just realized I was beating around the bush. My real question is this: absent an explicit request from a judge, why should I adhere to the hiring plan?
Now before anyone flips out, I'm not announcing an intention to go rogue, or anything. I'm merely confused. Could somebody please explain to me what good the hiring plan is for Boalt 3L's?
Scratch the above. I just realized I was beating around the bush. My real question is this: absent an explicit request from a judge, why should I adhere to the hiring plan?
Now before anyone flips out, I'm not announcing an intention to go rogue, or anything. I'm merely confused. Could somebody please explain to me what good the hiring plan is for Boalt 3L's?
Labels: Kevin Smith
posted by Patrick Bageant at 10:56 AM
13 Comments:
Patrick, I like you. So I'm going to tell you what I wished an upperclassman had told me. F*$k the hiring plan. Almost ALL judges take paper applications. If they receive your application and are like, "Oh this is a 3L, we don't interview 3Ls yet," then they just put your application in the pile with the other 3L applications. It's not like you are blacklisted for applying early. The JUDGES are the ones who agree to follow the hiring plan--not the students. So YOU'RE not breaking some commitment or anything by applying early.
You are no worse off sending your application now. You are WAY worse off following Boalt's plan. They will stick your envelope in a box with everyone else from Boalt who is applying to that judge. Everyone in the top 10 at Boalt is likely to apply to your judge. I mean, I think you are from Iowa or something, so maybe not there, but they will apply to the circuit courts you apply to. Those judges can't give all the interviews to Boalties. So they'll cherry-pick the best from the box. The top 10 will get 15 interview offers (this year probably only the top 5). You're a smart guy, so maybe you're in the top 5, but this is an especially competitive year, so I'd still get my applications out now.
But whether you're in the top 5 students or top 10% you can just as easily go down to the post office and mail the applications out yourself. At best, you show you really want to work for that judge. At worst, they won't really consider it until the hiring plan date. Last year, I called tons of judges over the summer and their secretaries were virtually in unison. Some version of, "I mean, you can go ahead and send it NOW if it's ready to go; s/he just might not get to 3Ls until August." Tell them your letters of recommendation will follow under separate cover because Boalt will be of no help in that department. I bet if a judge called Terry Gilligan himself and said, "I'd really like to hire Patrick as a clerk, but can you expedite his letters of recommendation so I can go ahead and make an offer?" Terry would tell him, "Sorry we have to follow the hiring plan." They are obsessed with it without regard to the detriment it causes the students.
If you don't believe any of this, at least do this--take the $2/application that Boalt charges you to mail your application. And the Friday before they overnight them to the judges--just go and send them to the judges yourself! Whatever you do (especially if you're not numerically ranked) do not let your application get stuck in that box of all the Boalt applications that will arrive that Monday morning.
My solution to this problem: ditch this whole clerkship thing. Very liberating.
Well, FWIW.
Props to a punny thread title, though. Not bad for a guy from.. Iowa or something.
First anon,
I think you're fear mongering.
In this whole process, it's very important to remember that different chambers do things very differently. Some chambers may very well do what first anon suggests and give your application more attention because you sent it early. But others may ignore it or lose it or who knows what because it didn't show up when they expected and wanted it.
By mailing your applications early, I also think you lose the advantage of being in the Boalt pile. First anon talks about the "Boalt pile" as a disadvantage, but a lot of judges hire only from specific schools and want your app to be in one these schools' piles. In some chambers an early letter may of course end up in the right pile, but in some chambers it won't and then it's pretty easily ignored.
The school piles are more likely to help people in the top percentage of the class. There's no way around this fact. But I think it's silly to think a judge intent on hiring a highly ranked student (and some judges care much more about rank than others) will scrap his whole grade-leaning world view when your application shows up on his desk a couple weeks early.
What I suggest is talking to alums and former clerks to try to pinpoint which of the judges you really favor hires early. If you can figure this out, great. If you can't, maybe pick some of your favorites and go ahead and send early. But I think to freak out and mail everything early isn't necessary. Sending out these applications is expensive! You're crazy if you think Boalt is breaking even at $2 a pop. To mail them all early is an undertaking, and not one that people should make because they get psyched out into thinking no one will hire them because they didn't send early.
Note that you CAN get some letters sent before the official date if you're proactive about it. This isn't Terry's job (Eric Stern is the one running clerkship coordination out of CDO). Rather than go through the CDO, however, you should speak to your faculty writers directly. I would be really surprised if professors were willing to mass mail all your letters early, but professors may help if you have some specific applications you want to have go early.
Finally, instead of getting too stuck on the unfairness of the hiring plan, concentrate on what you can control. I think the best advice you can get in this process is to talk to alums and clerks and to personalize your cover letters. Go through and find something individual for every single judge you want to have take you seriously (potential topics: you love the city, you read some case they did, you really want to work for a person with a background similar to yours, you admire their former work doing xyz...).
Good luck!
I haven't sat in on the clerkship meetings, so forgive me is this is well-known or obvious, but word on the street with judges/former clerks is that the 3L clerkship is dying out. Judges increasingly want permanent clerks or clerks with work experience. I spoke with a N. Dist. judge in the SF federal building who estimated there were maybe six spots open for 3Ls in the whole building.
Personally, I think this is a positive trend. We're getting screwed by it for now, but in the long run, it should lead to an easier transition from law school to work to clerkship, with less stress and less uncertainty.
Of course, I'm biased since working first is my plan anyway. Thoughts?
This is the sad truth: incoming 3Ls are kinda screwed for employment next year, whether in terms of clerkships or firm jobs. But it's not the end of the world.
Let's be honest. Most 3Ls aren't going to get start dates in 2010. And nearly every 3L who's remotely competitive for a clerkship is going to be applying for one.
Here's the double whammy: 2009 and earlier grads aren't feeling too secure, either. Some are worried about the amount of work or the possibility of layoffs in their office in 2010. And many of the people that are set to clerk in 2009 either (A) aren't quite sure that their firm is going to hire them back afterwards; (B) aren't going to get the $50K bonus that makes returning to the firm attractive; or (C) both. And you can be sure that, if they have comparable pedigrees, these are more attractive candidates.
So yeah, you might as well as apply early. I'm less confident it's going to do much good for you as a 3L; those judges that are willing to consider early hiring will have filled their spots already. But I don't really see it as doing any harm, as long as it doesn't annoy the office staff.
Carbolic, when I read "but it's not the end of the world," I expected your post would include some optimism or at least silver lining. No such luck...
Okay, here's the silver lining: 3Ls can screw over the Class of 2011 in almost exactly the same way that they were screwed over by the Class of 2009.
Apply broadly. State Court Clerkships. Article I judges. The Southern District of Inbred Appalachia. Magistrate and bankruptcy judges. Staff attorney positions. And for God's sake, don't restrict your applications to California.
Or alternatively, take the firm offer and arrange some cushy pro-bono job (if firms are still offering paid deferrals). In any case, wait until March. Start applying for 2011 Term positions like mad. Then try and get the fancy 9th Cir./N.D.CA. clerkship your bloated ego thinks you really deserve.
"Carbolic" I think you're being a prick. Just because people are interested in clerking or want to apply selectively to competitive areas doesn't mean they're self-entitled ego maniacs. As long as applicants understand the very really crap shoot element involved, there's nothing at all unreasonable or entitled about trying. And I think it's damned unfortunate if Boalt students aren't supportive of one another's aspirations here. Other law schools run circles around us in clerkship placement and some of that really does come down to attitude and supportive alums.
I also think unthinkingly mass mailing tons of applications to crazy middle of nowhere locales makes no sense. Think about yourself and what you really want; if living somewhere totally different sounds interesting to you, then of course, do that. But applying somewhere you expect to hate or that takes you leaps and bounds off your desired career track is ridiculous.
And Carbolic, I know disagreeing on a clerkship thread isn't exactly something new and different for us. Try not to post my class rank or other ad hominems this time though if you can help yourself.
Law Clerk Addict is reporting that a Boalt '08 grad was hired by Justice Ginsburg for '11-12 term. Anyone know who it is?
Whoever it is: rock on!
Gee, Laura, I was actually going out of my way NOT to reference our earlier debate on clerkships. For the record, I don’t think I’ve ever engaged in an ad hominem attack on N&B. (You’ll notice that I didn’t call anyone a self-entitled ego maniac.) Which is more than I can say for your latest comment.
Certainly there are nice places to clerk. In fact, if anyone wants to go to the CDO’s handy list of recent Boalt clerks and search for N&B posters on this thread, one will find that there are some really nice places to clerk, indeed. (Sincere congrats on the 2010 term, by the way.) But “most” Boalties aren’t going to get such nice locations—because there are very few of them, and they are very hard to get. It’s not insulting to point out that one person’s clerkship application results isn't representative of others--and it's not entirely a crapshoot, either.
If your class rank is 30% (which is quite an achievement, all things considering), and you want to apply only to the Ninth Circuit in SF or LA, good luck to you. I want to be as supportive of your aspirations as anyone else. But if you want good advice on actually getting a clerkship, that would more likely be to broaden your horizons. The CDO is constantly telling people: a clerkship in Des Moines can be just as satisfying as a clerkship in San Francisco. State appellate and trial courts have interesting caseloads. Magistrates clerks often do the same things as appellate clerks.
The problem with our clerking stats isn’t that our alumni aren’t supportive. It’s that every damn person wants to stay in California. Look at the Alumni Clerks Directory. It lists 76 alumni having clerked on the 9th Circuit. The 6th Circuit? Nine. The 10th Circuit? Six. (And one of them is a permanent clerk.) The 8th Circuit? THREE. The 11th Circuit? ONE. Now you may think: Isn't the 11th Circuit 1/76th the size of the 9th Circuit? But no, it's actually one-third.
These are great clerkships opportunities—particularly for “typical” applicants who aren’t expecting to send their resume to SCOTUS anytime soon. Trust me—these courts are filled with well-performing but unexceptional Harvard and Michigan students. And guess whose resumes they pick out of the pile to bring to their judges? Their alma maters', of course. And that just makes it even harder for us.
Of course, you have to think of what you want. (In this bad economy, you also want to look at what your alternatives are.) But if a 3L wants a great clerkship opportunity, than she or he should consider spending a year in Lansing to get it. Who knows—maybe it’s a great place to live. (Well, you can go there and find out.)
I meant to say that magistrate clerkships are like district court clerkships, of course.
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