2008 OCIP Callbacks
[Invisible hand, moving up. And up. And up again, for the final time.]
[Further Update: "Anonymous" sends this link to the best and worst of the Am Law websites. It's a fun read, although I couldn't agree less with the some of the rankings.]
This is the 2008 OCIP callback thread. If you are unsure about what that might mean, look here, and here.
We will follow my learned brother's tried and true procedures from the past:
On a policy note, Armen's remarks from three years ago are relevant: if this thread makes you feel anxious or uncomfortable, just click on by. You'll miss very little of substance, and you'll spare yourself a few weeks of fractious discontent. If you find the thread useful that's great, but if you don't, that's okay, too. Lastly, a year after I first met my classmates (you), I continue to wonder on a near-daily basis how on earth I landed among such an extraordinarily talented and personable group of human beings -- you are going to blow this thing out of the water!
Allen & Overy, NY+/-
Allen Matkins, LA+, SD+, SF+/-
Andrews Kurth, DA+
Arnold & Porter, DC+/-, LA-, SF+
Baker & Hostetler, NY+, DC-
Baker & McKenzie, SF+
Baker Botts, AT-, DC+, DT+
Bartko, SF+
Bingham McCutchen, BO-, LA+, SF+, SV+, WC+
Boies Schiller, OK+
Bryan Cave, LA+/-, OC+/-
Bullivant, SF+/-
Chadbourne, LA+
Christensen, LA-
Cleary, DC-, NY+/-
Cooley Godward, DC+/-, NY-, SD+, SF+/-, SV+
Covington, DC-, SF+/-
Cox Castle, LA+
Cravath, NY+/-
Crowell, DC+/-, OC+
Curtis, NY+
Davis Polk, NY+, SV+/-
Davis Wright, OR+, SEA+/-
Day Casebeer, SV+
Debevoise, NY+/-
Dechert, DC+, NY, SF+, SV+
Dewey LeBoeuf, NY+
DLA Piper, DC+/-, LA+, SF+, SV-
Donahue OAK+
Drinker Biddle, SF+
Faegre & Benson, MN+
Farella Braun, SF-
Federal Defender, SF+
Fenwick, SF+, SV+
Filice Brown, OAK+
Finnegan, SF-, SV+/-
Fish & Richardson, DC-, MN+, SF+, SV+/-
Foley & Lardner, LA+/-, SV+
Folger, SF+/-
Freshfields, LON+, NY+/-
Fried Frank, DC+, NY+
Fulbright Jaworski, DC+, LA- , NY+/-
Gibson Dunn, DC-, LA+/-, SF+/-
Goodwin Procter, BO+, DC+/-, LA+/-, SF+/-, SV+
Greenberg Glusker, CC-, LA-
Greenberg Traurig, SV+
Greene Radovsky, SF+
Gunderson, SV+
Hanson Bridgett, SF-
Heller Ehrman, LA+/-, NY+/-, SD+, SF+/-, SV-
Hogan & Hartson, DC+/-, LA+, NY-
Holland & Knight, DC+, SF+
Hooper Lundy, SF+
Howard Rice, SF+/-
Howery, LA+
Hughes Hubbard, DC+/-, NY+/-
Hunton & Williams, DC-
Irell, LA+
Ivins, DC+/-
Jenner & Block, IL+/-
Jones Day, DC+, LA+, SF+/-, SV+/-
K&L Gates, LA-, SEA+
Katten Muchin, LA+/-
Kaye Scholer, LA+
Kecker & Van Nest, SF-
King & Spalding AL-
Kirkland, DC+/-, IL+, LA+/-, NY+, SF+/-, SV+/-
Knobbe, SF+
Kramer Levin, NY-
Latham Watkins, CHI+, DC+/-, HK-, LA+, NY+/-, SD+, SF+/-, SV+/-
[Further Update: "Anonymous" sends this link to the best and worst of the Am Law websites. It's a fun read, although I couldn't agree less with the some of the rankings.]
------------
This is the 2008 OCIP callback thread. If you are unsure about what that might mean, look here, and here.
We will follow my learned brother's tried and true procedures from the past:
(a) When you get a callback or a ding, look to see if that information has been included in the main post. If not, post it into the comments using the following format: Firm Name, City, + or - to indicate offer or ding respectively.Please pay attention to (a), folks. The CDO anticipates more than 7,000 interviews during the next two weeks. Even if the results of only half those interviews make it to this post, well, you can do the math. Although I plan to stay on my toes, it will be magnificently unhelpful if you flood the comments with results that are cryptic, ambiguous, or already posted. Spare me that, if you can -- I am just as swamped with school and OCIP as you are.
(b) I will move your information into the main body of the thread. After adding the information, I will delete comments that state only an offer or a ding.
(c) I will keep comments that offer something substantive, ask or answer a question, or crack me up with jaded cynicism.
On a policy note, Armen's remarks from three years ago are relevant: if this thread makes you feel anxious or uncomfortable, just click on by. You'll miss very little of substance, and you'll spare yourself a few weeks of fractious discontent. If you find the thread useful that's great, but if you don't, that's okay, too. Lastly, a year after I first met my classmates (you), I continue to wonder on a near-daily basis how on earth I landed among such an extraordinarily talented and personable group of human beings -- you are going to blow this thing out of the water!
------------------------------
Akin Gump, LA+, SF+Allen & Overy, NY+/-
Allen Matkins, LA+, SD+, SF+/-
Andrews Kurth, DA+
Arnold & Porter, DC+/-, LA-, SF+
Baker & Hostetler, NY+, DC-
Baker & McKenzie, SF+
Baker Botts, AT-, DC+, DT+
Bartko, SF+
Bingham McCutchen, BO-, LA+, SF+, SV+, WC+
Boies Schiller, OK+
Bryan Cave, LA+/-, OC+/-
Bullivant, SF+/-
Chadbourne, LA+
Christensen, LA-
Cleary, DC-, NY+/-
Cooley Godward, DC+/-, NY-, SD+, SF+/-, SV+
Covington, DC-, SF+/-
Cox Castle, LA+
Cravath, NY+/-
Crowell, DC+/-, OC+
Curtis, NY+
Davis Polk, NY+, SV+/-
Davis Wright, OR+, SEA+/-
Day Casebeer, SV+
Debevoise, NY+/-
Dechert, DC+, NY, SF+, SV+
Dewey LeBoeuf, NY+
DLA Piper, DC+/-, LA+, SF+, SV-
Donahue OAK+
Drinker Biddle, SF+
Faegre & Benson, MN+
Farella Braun, SF-
Federal Defender, SF+
Fenwick, SF+, SV+
Filice Brown, OAK+
Finnegan, SF-, SV+/-
Fish & Richardson, DC-, MN+, SF+, SV+/-
Foley & Lardner, LA+/-, SV+
Folger, SF+/-
Freshfields, LON+, NY+/-
Fried Frank, DC+, NY+
Fulbright Jaworski, DC+, LA- , NY+/-
Gibson Dunn, DC-, LA+/-, SF+/-
Goodwin Procter, BO+, DC+/-, LA+/-, SF+/-, SV+
Greenberg Glusker, CC-, LA-
Greenberg Traurig, SV+
Greene Radovsky, SF+
Gunderson, SV+
Hanson Bridgett, SF-
Heller Ehrman, LA+/-, NY+/-, SD+, SF+/-, SV-
Hogan & Hartson, DC+/-, LA+, NY-
Holland & Knight, DC+, SF+
Hooper Lundy, SF+
Howard Rice, SF+/-
Howery, LA+
Hughes Hubbard, DC+/-, NY+/-
Hunton & Williams, DC-
Irell, LA+
Ivins, DC+/-
Jenner & Block, IL+/-
Jones Day, DC+, LA+, SF+/-, SV+/-
K&L Gates, LA-, SEA+
Katten Muchin, LA+/-
Kaye Scholer, LA+
Kecker & Van Nest, SF-
King & Spalding AL-
Kirkland, DC+/-, IL+, LA+/-, NY+, SF+/-, SV+/-
Knobbe, SF+
Kramer Levin, NY-
Latham Watkins, CHI+, DC+/-, HK-, LA+, NY+/-, SD+, SF+/-, SV+/-
Lieff Cabraser, SF-
Littler Mendelson, SF+
Loeb, LA+
Luce Forward, SD+/-
Manatt Phelps, LA+/-, SF+
Mayer Brown, IL+, SV+
Mayers Nave, OK -
McDermott, DC+, LA-, SV-
Milbank, LA+/-, NY+
Mintz Levin, BO-, NY-, SD+
MoFo, CHI+, LA-, SD+, SF+/-, SV+/-
Morgan Lewis, DC+/-, LA+/-, NY+, SF+/-, SV+/-
Munger, LA+/-
Nixon Peabody, DC+, LA-, SF+/-
Nossaman, LA+, SAC+, SF+
O'Melveny, CC+, DC+/-, LA+/-, NB-, SF+/-, SV+/-
Orrick, LA-, NY+, SAC+/-, SF+/-, SV+/-
Patterson Belknap, NY-
Paul Hastings, DC+, LA+/-, NY+/-, SD+, SF+/-, SV+
Paul Weiss, NY+/-
Perkins Coie, LA-, PO+, SEA+/-, SF+, SV+/-
Pillsbury, DC+/-, LA-, SF+/-, SV+/-
Proskauer Rose, LA+/-, NY+/-
Quinn Emanuel, LA-, SF+/-, SV+
Reed Smith, LA+, SF+/-, SV+
Ropes and Gray, DC+, NY+, SF+, SF+
Ross Dixon, DC+/-
Schiff Hardin, SF-
Schulte Roth, NY+
Sedgwick Detert, SF+/-
Severson & Werson, SF+/-
Shartsis Friese, SF+
Shearman Sterling, SF-
Sheppard Mullin, LA+, SF+
Shute Mihaly, SF+
Sidley, DC+, IL+, LA+/-, NY+, SF+/-
Simpson Thacher, LA+/-, LON-, NY+/-, SV+/-
Skadden, BO+/-, LA+, NY+, SF+/-, SV+/-
Snell Wilmer, OC-
Sonnenshein, SF+, SV-
Squire Sanders, SF+
Steptoe, DC+/-
Stoel Rives, PO+, SEA+
Stroock, LA-
Sullivan & Cromwell, DC-, NY+/-, SV+/-
Thelen, SF+/-
Tonkon Torp, PO+/-
Townsend, DC+, SF+/-
Wachtell, NY+
Weil Gotshal, NY+, SF-, SV+/-
White & Case, SV-
Williams & Connolly, DC+
Willkie Farr, NY+
Wilmer Hale, BO+, DC+/-, LA+, NY+, SV+
Wilson Sonsini, SF+, SV+/-
Winston & Strawn, DC+/-, IL+, LA+/-, NY+, SF+/-
Littler Mendelson, SF+
Loeb, LA+
Luce Forward, SD+/-
Manatt Phelps, LA+/-, SF+
Mayer Brown, IL+, SV+
Mayers Nave, OK -
McDermott, DC+, LA-, SV-
Milbank, LA+/-, NY+
Mintz Levin, BO-, NY-, SD+
MoFo, CHI+, LA-, SD+, SF+/-, SV+/-
Morgan Lewis, DC+/-, LA+/-, NY+, SF+/-, SV+/-
Munger, LA+/-
Nixon Peabody, DC+, LA-, SF+/-
Nossaman, LA+, SAC+, SF+
O'Melveny, CC+, DC+/-, LA+/-, NB-, SF+/-, SV+/-
Orrick, LA-, NY+, SAC+/-, SF+/-, SV+/-
Patterson Belknap, NY-
Paul Hastings, DC+, LA+/-, NY+/-, SD+, SF+/-, SV+
Paul Weiss, NY+/-
Perkins Coie, LA-, PO+, SEA+/-, SF+, SV+/-
Pillsbury, DC+/-, LA-, SF+/-, SV+/-
Proskauer Rose, LA+/-, NY+/-
Quinn Emanuel, LA-, SF+/-, SV+
Reed Smith, LA+, SF+/-, SV+
Ropes and Gray, DC+, NY+, SF+, SF+
Ross Dixon, DC+/-
Schiff Hardin, SF-
Schulte Roth, NY+
Sedgwick Detert, SF+/-
Severson & Werson, SF+/-
Shartsis Friese, SF+
Shearman Sterling, SF-
Sheppard Mullin, LA+, SF+
Shute Mihaly, SF+
Sidley, DC+, IL+, LA+/-, NY+, SF+/-
Simpson Thacher, LA+/-, LON-, NY+/-, SV+/-
Skadden, BO+/-, LA+, NY+, SF+/-, SV+/-
Snell Wilmer, OC-
Sonnenshein, SF+, SV-
Squire Sanders, SF+
Steptoe, DC+/-
Stoel Rives, PO+, SEA+
Stroock, LA-
Sullivan & Cromwell, DC-, NY+/-, SV+/-
Thelen, SF+/-
Tonkon Torp, PO+/-
Townsend, DC+, SF+/-
Wachtell, NY+
Weil Gotshal, NY+, SF-, SV+/-
White & Case, SV-
Williams & Connolly, DC+
Willkie Farr, NY+
Wilmer Hale, BO+, DC+/-, LA+, NY+, SV+
Wilson Sonsini, SF+, SV+/-
Winston & Strawn, DC+/-, IL+, LA+/-, NY+, SF+/-
------------------------------
Labels: 0L/1L Advice, OCIP/Employment
posted by Patrick Bageant at 6:23 AM
197 Comments:
Not a callback, but...
I have a Phase II scheduled with Ross Dixon, who is merging on 1 January 2009 (more here). Is that a bad thing? Is it still worth interviewing with them?
Perkins Coie did a dinner. Not sure if that counts as an official callback or not.
Well, did they invite everyone to the dinner that interviewed with them?
Offers to dinner usually, but not always, mean you're getting a callback. And the flip side is, sometimes firms don't invite people out to dinner who they give callbacks to. Some firms seem to use dinners to evaluate candidates who are on the bubble.
Yeah I ended up working for a firm that didn't give me a dinner invite, a few other people did the dinner and didn't get callbacks. It's strange, though I definitely wouldn't imply that getting a dinner invite is a bad thing. Chances are if you go to a dinner you'll get a callback unless you're all kinds of obnoxious. FYI under no circumstances should you make little comments to ensure they know you have lots of callbacks.
The firm I worked at this summer generally invites their favorite candidates to their post-OCIP dinners so that they can have more time to sell the firm.
I got invited to a dinner and wasn't able to go. Did I lose my chance at a call-back?
I really feel that if going to the post-OCI dinner is necessary to get a callback, our CDO would have told us at some point. Don't you?
Well, they also don't tell you that going to lunches during the summer is necessary to get an offer, but you sure can count on getting dinged if you don't put in some face time in social situations.
First, anyone who puts their future career into the hands of the CDO is flirting with disaster (no offense to TG). Second, dinners, much like lunches or dinners during your call back, and during other social functions during the summer, are meant to give us a glimpse of who you are as a person. We can figure out what kind of a law student you are in the 3 seconds it takes to glance at a transcript and resume. But figuring out the person is trickier, yet just as important. From the candidate's perspective, do you really think sitting in a crappy hotel room for 20 minutes is going to give you any meaningful idea of who the people are at this firm? So to that end, much like a first date, the dinners are a great way to size up each other.
Missing a post-interview dinner is not the death knell for your chances at an offer. Just say thank you and politely explain why you can't make it. Maybe you already accepted another dinner invitation. Maybe you have an evening class. Just don't lie and try to hide the fact that you're having dinner with another firm. There's always a chance they'll be at the same restaurant or that the interviewers will know each other (The firms often sent Boalt alumni who could possibly be former classmates.) Just tell the truth and be nice. That said, the dinners are a real treat. If you can go, you totally should. Just don't drink too much...
Is there any good etiquette guide for these things? I'm wondering how one politely declines a call back and how long you have before you have to get back to call back requests - any thoughts?
I think the CDO guide provides some time lines. I think the wisdom is "the sooner the better" because it opens up a spot for a classmate that may be a second string callback.
The proper way to decline a callback is the same way a firm would deny YOU a callback. Polite. Brief. They understand that this is the way it works and only rarely will be heartbroken. Something like, "It was very nice to meet you and I sincerely appreciate your interest; however I will be unable to schedule a callback at Firm Name. Thank you again for sharing your time and information with me."
A fun game is to mail firms rejection letters on behalf of one of your friends. They'll be mad, but you'll both laugh about it later. It's best to drop them in the mailbox two days before the interview to make sure they arrive promptly.
3:31 is right. I dropped a note earlier this year on behalf of the CDO. That's why Mayer Brown DC isn't at OCIP.
Re: Perkins Coie dinner.
They screwed this up last year, because none of us knew what was going on. If you got a dinner invite, you have a callback. Call them to schedule it. The inverse is unclear, though.
Wait, are you sure? I went to the dinner, but no one said anything about any more interviewing. Are you saying we won't hear any more from them if we don't initiate contact now ourselves? That does seem poorly executed...
Even if you were offered some kind of elusive dinner-based callback and fear you missed it, worry not. The firm will be in touch with you in one of two ways. The lawyer will call and formalize the invitation and tell you who to call to schedule it OR the recruiter will call and say, "I hear you've been invited to come get to know some more of the folks at Firm Name! Are you ready to schedule?" In no case should you call the firm and ask, "Um, so I got a callback, right? Because of the dinner, right? What now?" Very bad form!
So does this mean that if you (as I did) got a dinner invitation but didn't check your voicemail/email in time to go (boo same-day dinner invitations!), that you're screwed? A wrote a polite note to the recruiter but haven't heard back yet, and the firm is on the list of those that have responded.
relax
you dont have to go to the dinners to get an offer
Are DC Firms generally this slow?
I found that DC firms were the slowest (generally took about 1 week for an interview offer, a lot longer for a rejection).
If (as the CDO tells us) firms aren't able to tell who bid on them and where, why am I getting emails about being on a firm's "waitlist" next week?
Nossaman, LA, +
They were really fast; that poor girl should be on her way back home right now instead.
I wouldn't worry if you didn't get a call back from Nossaman today. I have the impression they're only calling people they know for certain are call backs. It's speculation, I know, but I'm just surprised that a firm with a greater supposed "quality of life" is calling people past 8pm on a Friday before a long weekend letting them know to call them back for a call back. She also sounded rushed. I don't know.
I got a callback from Nossoman and I am not complaining about the fast turnaround time! I wish more firms were this prompt...
The Labor Day weekend Friday callback is definitely a bit awkward. As are the mid-OCIP callbacks from the safety firms.
You are not thinking clearly if you call them safety firms in this economic climate. Seriously, just be happy will you? Plenty of folks won't get good news, midweek or otherwise.
I suppose I could have chosen something better than safety firm. What I meant was the firm that wasn't near the top of the list. The non-dream-firms, if you will. Awkward to have to decide whether to schedule a callback with them when there are 5-6 places you'd rather be.
But yes, any callback is a nice callback. Particularly with the economy.
(I also find it surprising that you have an expectation of clear thinking after a week of OCIP. Seriously?)
What is the standard (or average) ratio of callbacks to screenings? I heard one callback to every 5-10 screenings is good. Thoughts?
I didn't mean to insult: you are quite right that no 2L has any reason to know anything about wtf is going on. If I sound negative it is because I just wish I had the knowledge I do now, combined with the options 2Ls have.
My advice is to treat all firms as a good option until you have more than one offer in hand to choose from. After all, anyone from non top 20ish schools would kill for one of those "safeties."
I would also schedule the callback. Just because they are not high on the vault list doesn't mean that they wouldn't actually be a better place to work. Especially give serious thought to the smaller firms. Oftentimes those people don't hate their lives, unless big firm associates.
Oh, yeah, I'm definitely scheduling the callback. It could be the only one I get!
11:14 - Are DC offices really doing callbacks at this hour? Isn't it like 2:00am there? On a Friday?
I don't think I've ever read so much that contains so little substantive content. It's as if nobody participating in OCIP has ever done anything outside of academia.
S1: how should I XXXXXXX at dinner?
S2: blah, blah, blah,
S1: oh, I eat with a fork. amazing.
Jesus people. If this is your first "real" job interview then you're in the wrong business. Better think about become a law professor.
Um, seems more like they had an efficient educational path to get here without having to work before.
It was my first professional interview when I did 2L ocip. I didn't have to interview my first summer, and my next most "professional" job had been working in a golf course cart barn.
"without having to work before..."
Are you serious?! Don't flatter yourself. Those who took time off didn't "have" to do anything. We choose to take a little time away from school to get some interesting/relevant experience or to pursue opportunities that won't be available to us once we assume massive law school debt.
Lol. My point was that there are plenty of boalties with no previous professional experience. Who is it that is full of themselves here? We are all in the same place now, even if some didn't [insert activity] in [insert country and/or inner city].
So help the people with less experience out, instead of looking on in disdain.
i did 15 callbacks and got 3 offers
For those of you who have done callback week on the other coast, how do you go about the scheduling process, particularly with fly in and fly out dates?
(I got an early callback offer, but I'm hoping that I'll have the chance to do a few more callbacks in the same city. Should I call the first offering firm to schedule a date, and then continually update them as I schedule more? Or should I wait until I have a full list for the week, and work out fly in and fly out and interview dates then?)
NALP may have changed their guidelines, but on your East Coast swing, the first firm that you interview with acts as your "host" firm. They book the flights and hotels in each city, and you submit your reimbursements to them. But you also include the names of all the other firms you plan on interviewing with on the NALP form.
The simplest course is to accept the call back offer, but politely ask to schedule the interview in a week or so, when you'll have a clearer understanding of which cities you want to hit up. Boston is great this time of year, FWIW.
Yeah, I don't think the NALP rules changed. I'm just concerned because I got the offer a few days ago, and I'm interviewing on campus with firms from the other coast through Sept. 8. Given that the CDO says that firms often take 3-5 days (or even more) to offer callbacks, I'm concerned about accepting a callback on Aug. 28 and not getting back to them about scheduling until Sept. 13 or so. Seems egregiously unprofessional to me to take that long...
4:21/5:20 -- What you want to do is call them back and schedule your interview. Then just wait until your schedule fills in to set up travel. The recruiting department typically has nothing to do with the travel arrangements, so it's much less important if you're impulsive or slow on setting up your actual flying dates. Waiting half a month to pick a date for a callback, as you suggest, is unprofessional.
Waiting a long time to schedule your callback is a big no no. Schedule as soon as possible, and you can always change the date if necessary. Just make sure you make any changes before they book your airfare, etc.
Where's my Sedgwick ding? Those people hated me...
Check your mailbox (they hated me too).
Hmm... no mail 'til Tuesday. To their credit, they weren't such great people, and I didn't much care for them, either.
I had a rough experience with Sidley Austin SF. Very aggressive questioning really threw me off. I'm sure they hated me.
I'm in a stressful spot. 11 of my 14 interviews were Wed-Fri, 9 on thurs and fri. I'm yet to get any dings or callbacks, but I felt like almost every interview went pretty well. From talking to other SF people, a lot of others are in the same boat.
Tuesday...
It'll all fall into place Tuesday. On Tuesday, we learn if we're doing okay, or if we're totally screwed.
Really wish they'd just send dings instead of taking forever.
Agreed. I would prefer a nice e-mail to having to wait for snail mail...
Does anyone think it's a good idea to schedule two callback interviews in one day? Fall break is only 5 weekdays, so it might be necessary.
I would recommend against scheduling two callbacks in one day. The callback interviews generally take about 4-5 hours. If you go for two callbacks, you'll inevitably be wiped by the end of the day, and probably will have very poor interviews. Additionally, a few of my callbacks last year asked me to do something with the firm that evening, like go to a bar or dinner. I think it's always better to leave the evening open so you have the opportunity to take advantage of those situations if they arise.
What is proper attire for a callback dinner at one of the nicer rockridge restaurants? Do I need to wear a suit?
For the Rockridge callback dinner, a suit isn't necessary--just dressing "nicely." These things are usually business casual. For men, that means a dress shirt and trousers/khakis. You could also throw in a blazer and tie if you want, but it's not necessary.
I disagree. I think you should always show up in a suit. Let them tell you you are overdressed and to take off your jacket. Its much better, and more respectful, than showing up in a shirt/khaki's only to find the firm lawyers in suits.
katten LA ding via EMAIL! come on people, you can afford a real letter.
Skadden interviewer. Worst. Person. Ever.
Ding ding ding goes the trolley: Morgan Lewis, DC-. (By e-mail.)
1:48. Which Skadden office? I interviewed with two. Neither seem particularly bad.
Hey, I'm flying to NYC for callback week and was wondering how many callbacks I should go on. I suppose that at the maximum it would be 10 (2 a day) but obviously thats a lot.
What is a reasonable number?
Re callbacks in NY:
I did seven or eight in a week, which was a lot. Four hour interviews are mentally draining, especially with lunch included. If you want to do a lot of callbacks, stay through for the first half of the following week. Incidentally, firms will pay for your hotel through the weekend.
And here's some really important advice: most NYC firms are located either in midtown (around Grand Central) or downtown (around Wall Street). If you are going to schedule two interviews in the same day, make sure they are in the same area. It can take a surprisingly long time to get from one are to another, whether by taxi or subway. You simply won't have time if you go to lunch with the first firm. And being late to an interview is the kiss of death.
How much time do you usually have between interviews. Is it 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 30 minutes?
So I am starting to freak out. How many call-backs should I have by now to be on the safe side? If I'm doing bay area, is 3 too little?
So I was hoping for some 3L advice. My grades aren't great mostly Ps and two Hs for last year. I have done 25 interviews in phase one and plan on doing another 20 this phase. My question is that I have only gotten one callback thus far but no rejections, is it a matter of me freaking out and not being patient or if I have not heard is it just a lost cause? Also should I be doing more interviews. Any advice would be helpful!!!
I got 2 callbacks with one H. I know that some people got anywhere from 0 to 4 callbacks with all P's, but other things on their resume. That should give you a ballpark estimate.
Some advice for those who are worried that they are not getting enough callbacks:
1. Try to relax.
2. Expand your geography, particularly outside of California. San Francisco is a small legal market, and there's a lot of competition from Berkeley.
3. Consider New York. NYC is experiencing less of a legal slowdown, and NY firms have huge summer classes (because of huge associate attrition). You can always reinterview or explore moving to another office within the firm as a 3L.
4. Be more flexible with regard to practice area or firm size. Don't profess a strong love of one particular practice area--be open and willing to explore. You might find that you like something unexpected.
5. Don't apologize for your interests, but be firm-focused. Firms don't negatively judge past public service activity, but be careful how you describe your future plans. Appear interested and excited about joining this firm. Don't ask about pro bono in the screening interview--it suggests that you won't want to do non-volunteer work. (You can always find out about this later.)
6. Pay attention to the practice areas of the particular office that is interviewing. Describe an interest in that practice. In other words, don't talk about bankruptcy if you are interviewing in LA and the firm's bankruptcy practice is based in Washington. Google "Chambers and Partners" and see what your firm office's strengths are.
7. Vary your presentation and questions. Are you "selling" yourself the same way in all of your interviews? Maybe it's your sales pitch. Try another approach, in at least some interviews. Compare your firm questions with others (particularly 3Ls) and come up with some new questions.
3 callbacks in the Bay Area may not be enough. My experience last year (I'm a 3L) is that the SF firms were generally tougher and more selective at callbacks than NY firms. My advice is to go squeeze yourself into the schedules of any SF firms that you didnt get interviews yet, and to schedule some NY interviews so that you have a bit of a fallback.
If you haven't yet heard from a firm you interviewed with last Monday or Tuesday, is it time to give up all hope? There were a few I did those two days that I thought went exceptionally well -- but I have not heard anything from them and I see they have made some callback offers.
Do firms generally make all callback decisions at the same time, or is it possible they'll go "back to the well" after making a first batch of callback offers? 3Ls -- what was the longest you had to wait to get a callback?
Was at the Perkins dinner, and finally got the "official" callback yesterday for the SV office. The partner told me they had some screwup with phone numbers which is why it took so long. If you were at the dinner and are still waiting for your callback, thats the reason.
Has anyone gotten a callback by snail mail yet? (I haven't, I'm just curious...)
curious if others are finding the case, it seems to be the case amongst my friends that not many are receiving call backs or rejections...3Ls is it your experience that rejections just take longer to receive or do people think its more of a function of the firms being more cautious this year regarding decision making?
rejections typically come by snail mail and thus take longer to arrive. callbacks usually happen within a few days. or at least, that's how it worked last year.
Check the list above. If a firm has done a callback and you haven't gotten one, you're probably getting a rejection. Also, from my experience I usually heard from a firm for a callback within a week - if I hadn't heard by then I didn't get a callback. The market shouldn't affect the timing because the recruiting committees have been told by firm management how many people to hire for a summer class, and they adjust callback numbers accordingly. So there might be less callbacks than the last couple of years, but the timing won't change.
So, um, what the hell am I supposed to do if I don't get a callback?
Re 4:23--that's not quite true. There were a number of occasions last year when people got callback calls several days (>week) after the N&B marked a "+".
In other words--this thread is meant to be helpful, not cause despair. It tell you when firms start making decisions; don't assume it also tells when firms finish.
2:41
I have gotten a callback by mail but I got a call from them saying that the letter was coming.
If you don't get a callback you have several options:
(1) keep emailing firms that you didn't interview with. That is how I got my summer job.
(2) Do something else. There are tons of jobs out there that don't do OCIP. In fact, you will probably enjoy your life a great deal more than many biglaw classmates.
(3) Ask the CDO. They deal with it every year and, even though they get tons of flak, can actually help you find something.
Don't worry, these firms are not the only way you can validate going to law school. The school, in my opinion, does a horrible job of reminding us of that.
When I did OCIP I found that I had a lot more call-backs in the second phase (like 2X as many or more). I think it had to do with the fact that I relaxed and got more comfortable. So don't think it's the end of the world if you're having a slow start. I ended up going to the firm that was my very last scheduled interview of OCIP, on the last day, in the afternoon - maybe my relief that the whole thing was over went over well with the interviewer.
I'm sorry but 9:41's characterization might be right for the interviews he conducts, but I think it's wrong for the vast majority of interviews. Most good interviewers will make sure to ask you if you have any questions for them about the firm regardless of how well you do during the interview. It's just good form and common courtesy. We are taking our time to speak with you and you are taking your time to speak with us. The least we can do is give you an opportunity to have your questions answered by a person, as opposed to snipped quotes in various ranking magazines. That's the point of asking the question in the vast majority of cases.
Latham, SV-
McDermott Will & Emery, SV-
Simpson Thacher, SV-
K&L Gates, LA-
Checking the mail has become a little depressing. I wonder at what point one should give up on getting a callback...
Last year, two classmates/roommates in my class pasted an entire wall of their apartment with rejection letters.
Honestly, it was pretty awesome. Don't get down on the rejections!
sigh... so after two weeks of interviewing. 1 callback, 1 ding. Funny though, I am past the worrying stage.
You may think that when an interviewer asks you if you have any questions about the firm, it's a throwaway question, but we judge you on what questions you ask.
Don't ask something that you can find out on the website.
If you have an associate interviewing you, ask about his/her typical day. If he/she is junior, ask if they've written summary judgment motions, taken depositions, etc., whatever the more pertinent experience is in the field of law you want to practice.
Ask about the kinds of clients, whether associates get to go on pitches, etc.
it's your opportunity to show your interest and that you're serious about the firm.
What does it mean when a firm sent out its acceptances/rejections a while ago?
Am I not good enough for even a ding letter?
I'm looking at you, Sullivan & Cromwell.
Does anyone ever pull the late-October callback? "Hey, we spoke with you on campus over a month ago. Turns out, we would like to invite you back. What do you say?"
I am still waiting for my Howrey rejection from last year.
Forgive me if this has already been posted.
I was invited to an invite only dinner, went, and had a great time. Does getting invited to a dinner generally mean you will get a callback? Or is it still a crapshoot?
I do not forgive you, since the answer to your question is on this thread at least twice already.
McWho, you are a jackass.
There are 113 comments on the thread, so what if there are a couple repeats?
12:32: Ctrl + F "dinner." The discussion was beaten to death. If anyone is a jackass it's selfish a-holes like you who expect the world to bend over for your convenience. The time it took to hurl personal insults could easily have been spent to find the answer.
Awesome. Finally got my Pillsbury DC ding letter today - along with a handwritten note from the interviewer.
I've been listing CHI as China. I realize that may have caused some confusion, and for that I apologize.
If you think a CHI listed above refers to Chicago, drop a comment, and I will change it to IL.
This list is particularly confusing for firms with Chicago offices in Chicago's Chinatown district. It's like they're in both CHIs at the same time.
I am sorry to go back to this but to the person who talked about "safety firms," you are a total a-hole. I worked at a Vault top 20 firm and hated it, and was not particularly impressed with the people. Getting HHs and doing law review means nothing in the real world. I'm going to a smaller firm now that is not in the top 100 and you probably haven't heard of it and would thus call it a "safety firm." But the people there are a hell of a lot smarter than at the fancy place I worked at.
9:57, I'm not trying to be an "a-hole" or offend you, but posts like that just make you look bitter and/or insecure. Most people will read your post and just assume that your grades weren't all that good, you didn't make CLR, and you didn't enjoy your experience at a big, "prestigious" firm. That's fine, and that happens, but going off and saying that making good grades and being on CLR doesn't count for anything in the real world is a bit much and loses a great deal of your post's credibility.
We all know that once we take full time positions at firms, we have a great deal left to prove, but the fact is that law review and grades can affect your career down the road. They are by no means everything, but they do help to open doors, and most people know that. I think that, despite your post, you would agree with that, as well.
I think that what 9:57 meant to say is:
"Don't judge a firm by the Vault number. Rather, try to judge it by the people, the work, and the lifestyle."
I'm sure there are Vault firms that are great places to make a career. There are many that are not.
However, I would also say (1) please leave dead horses to their fate and (2) reread your posts before you post them. When I sound like an ass, it usually is because I intended to. I think this was just poor planning.
MoFo SF-. Turns out they live up to their name, indeed.
I'm interested to hear from people who "went with their gut" and picked a firm based on personality/fit and then how it went once they started working with the firm. From my own past experience, I have found that people can seem like the nicest supervisors in the world when you interview with them. It was only after I had started working that I began to see the crazy side. Any thoughts?
So this is bizarre. I got a lot of rejections really quick. My grades are not good, I didn't make CLR, and I came to law school straight out of college so my resume really isn't that impressive. How is it that I got a callback from a "top 5" firm (whatever that means)? Also, do grades/resume matter in judging whether I will get an offer from the callback?
And if it's not a mistake (which is possible) it's hope to all of us who get PPPPPPPPs.
Funny thing happened. I got a rejection letter from a firm I didn't even interview with... They said it was a pleasure meeting me...
That's a new level of ridiculousness.
9:34:
The answer is because Skadden hires people that fit with them, not just because they are on CLR and get HH's.
I too found a lot of randomness. Sometimes I just hit it off with the interviewer. Other times it's awkward and I just want to leave. It's unfair that your chances depend in part on who you interview with. Like if the firm sends more than one interviewer, each in different rooms.
Skadden is the "top 5" I was referring to. You are very knowledgeable. I appreciate the input!
Or...McWho knows who posted that comment. Hmm...
Or because Skadden is a top 5 firm not because they're elite but BECAUSE they'll gladly suck the soul out of almost anyone for the money. Under their business model they could leverage a prestige-hungry monkey into higher PPPs by sticking him on doc review until they realize the Vault rankings don't mean it's a good firm or the path to a good career...
Hey, 10:35:
Why don't you just be glad for a boaltie that got a callback with a good firm?
I do not know the poster. What I do know is that every other top 5 firm is so SO SO SO SO particular on grades that they could not be who the poster was referring to.
Personally, I would rather work at Skadden than a firm that would hire anyone that gets straight HH's.
I mean, seriously, while there are some great people with good grades, there are some WEIRD people as well. I don't want to work with them.
"I would rather work at Skadden than a firm that would hire anyone that gets straight HH's. "
Yeah, I'd really hate to get straight HH's too.
you know what I miss? The days where rankings and prestige didn't mean anything to me or anyone I hung out with.... :(
I didn't say I would hate to have HH's. Read it again.
Would it help if I said "I would rather work at Skadden than a firm that will hire any living body that has good grades, regardless of personality or any other characteristic"?
It is possible to pick a firm that is both well respected and treats its employees (relatively) well. I made such a choice last Fall after our OCIP based upon my impressions of the people I met at the firms, things I heard about it, and a my own intuition. In my case, it thankfully worked out - I had a great experience, found my coworkers to be amiable and decent, and am now genuinely looking forward to beginning work in September. Whether I simply lucked out or not, I can't say.
And I second McWho is saying that we all should look beyond the Vault number. You are picking a group of people who you will be spending nearly all of daytime hours with for the next year or more at least. The smart question to ask is whether you will be happy to do so, not whether the firm is "prestigious."
And unlike picking a law school in which the school's "prestige" does play a direct part in the job you can get, a law firm's prestige is only relevant in terms of the exit opportunity available when and if you decide to lateral. The conventional wisdom seems to be that you can only lateral into a lower ranked firm, but I simply think this is overtated.
From what I saw at my summer firm, you can absolutely lateral upwards. I doubt you can to every firm (see Cravath) but I know for a fact that a number of firms take people from mid size firms etc. into mid-level and upper level associate positions---because they learned skills at their last firm which entry level associates at the huge guys don't get.
So it isn't just a waterfall of laterability.
Can people discuss their experience doing two call-backs a day? Did you tell the morning interviewer or the lunch people that you had another interview?
12:31AM, I am with you. All this focus on prestige needs to end...
You can totally mention that you have another interview later in the day. I did it once and the morning interviewer even gave me a cab voucher to get to my afternoon interview. In fact, tell the RECRUITER when you schedule so she makes sure and starts you as early as possible in the morning. Some places will forego a lengthy lunch and do coffee instead.
But it is, as has been said, very mentally draining to be "on" for like 8-9 hours in a row. Especially if dinner is expected after the afternoon one. Make sure you schedule them close together (distance wise) and not TOO close together (in terms of what time the morning interview is scheduled to end and the afternoon interview is scheduled to start.
Finally, if you are the kind of guy/gal that has 10 callbacks to schedule, the TRUTH is you don't need to go on all of them. Because you've got the right stuff. If you have so many, you already look good on. Now you need to look good in person. You do not need to look exhausted and mix up firms' practice areas because you are running around like crazy.
Pick your five favorites, shine on those, and you will get offers from several or all of those five. Really.
Plus maybe you'll leave an opening for the less lucky so far.
5:09 is right. Multiple interviews is like dating multiple people. You are better off being upfront.
But seriously, in this economic climate, don't do ten callbacks. Share some of the ones you don't like as much with your fellow Boalties.
Regarding canceling callbacks to save some opportunity for other Boalties -- does it really work like that? Do firms generally cap the number of offers they make to students at a particular school?
Also -- are dings forever? Has anyone successfully received an offer from a firm after being denied a callback? I had an interview with a great firm that went EXTREMELY well, but I got the ding letter a week later -- "we had too many good candidates, I'm sorry we couldn't offer you a callback." I'm considering responding to the interviewer to say "too bad you couldn't invite me back, if your needs change, keep me in mind." Is this totally foolish and desperate?
yes. they always say that they loved you, but there are lots of awesome candidates.
its like when a girl breaks up with you by saying "it isn't you, it's me."
riiiiiiiiiiight.
Yes, your intuition is correct - you'd look like a desperate fool. I don't doubt that your interview went well, but lots of other factors are at play. That firm may not be looking to hire many people. Some firms use a hiring committee, so the decision to call people back is often not entirely at the discretion of the interviewer. And lots of firms use firm grade cutoffs, so sometimes it doesn't even matter how well the interview went.
I don't mean to sound overly harsh, but I think most of us have had interview that we thought went really well yet didn't yield a callback. That's just how it goes.
Are there rolling callbacks? Because Sedgwick really, really hated me, and I haven't gotten a ding letter yet.
(Of course, it could be that they know I know that there's no chance...)
MoFo SV-
At least I think it was MoFo and I think it was the Palo Alto office. For some reason the letter was sent to my parents' house, and therefore my mom relayed the message to me over a static-y cell phone line. I think she thought Morrison was one law firm and Foerster was another.
7:56 have you been fooling around with my ex?
How long does a firm generally take to contact you after a callback?
It is not uncommon for a firm to take you to dinner that same night and extend the offer then. But it is perhaps MORE common for it to take roughly a week. Frequently the hiring committee must meet and at some firms they meet everyday and in others they meet in cycles. Your interview could be the day after their weekly meeting. It is not at all forward or unexpected for you to ask (probably the recruitment personnel) "how the process works from here." They can usually tell you, "Our committee will meet in X days and we'll extend offers as soon as we here from them." They generally won't hide the ball and many times will even volunteer the information.
do firms generally allow you to work at a different office (of the same firm) after the 3L year, than the one that you end up spending your 2L summer in? For example, if I'm in the LA office in the summer but I'd rather be in the SF office long-term, is that a possibility? If so, at what point do I broach this- call-back? post-summer evaluation? (this is assuming the firm even gives me an offer to return post-graduation).
thanks!
That's one of those "it varies by firm" questions. It also varies by candidate. Were you going to have been able to get a job in that other firm anyway or does it seem like you're using their LA office as a stepping stone.
You could maybe ask sort of vaguely in the interview if people ever transfer between offices but it's probably a better idea to assume that each office is doing its own recruiting. If you're not a sure thing, you you may not want to make them think they are wasting a spot on someone not really interested in being in their office. Or worse, using them as a gateway to another office. Especially if you're trying to move from a bigger, easier-to-get-into market (LA) to a smaller, more desirable market (SF). So tread lightly and maybe ask a younger associate or try to find out through the grapevine.
Another possibility is to see if they allow you to split between two of their offices in the summer. But like all splitting questions, wait until you have an offer before inquiring.
All that said whether you ask nor of if you wait until after your summer, it might just come down to how awesome you are and how badly they want to get/keep you.
It totally depends on the firm - some do, some don't. It depends on which practice areas are where and on how firms staff their work (if firms staff across offices, it's less of an issue where the actual lawyer is located; if firms only staff from one office, it depends a lot on which offices are busy).
I'd say if it's a possibility, post- summer offer try to see if they'll let you split offices next summer.
Anyone up for a ding letter bonfire?
Steptoe, DC-
Hughes Hubbard, DC-
Winston Strawn, NY-
Paul Hastings, NY-
Kramer Levin, NY-
wow, 5 rejection letters in one day. talk about depressing.
The rejection letters are indeed depressing....but hey, we did our best, and in my experience so far, this process is somewhat random. Sure, if you have top grades you are highly likely to do well in OCI. But for the rest of us with less-than-perfect grades, OCI is really a crap shoot in many ways. I had interviews that I thought went exceptionally well, only to get a rejection letter a few days later. On the other hand, I had a couple of interviews that I thought I only did so-so on, but I received call backs.
For any 1Ls reading this, here are my .02 on OCI;
Take public interest OFF of your resume, or be sure to present it in a way that makes sense why you have gone from saving whales to wanting to be a _______ (corporate, etc.) lawyer.
RESEARCH the firms!! My biggest blunders were mixing up what city/how big/what practice areas. Keep notes written down that you can review right before the interview.
Have lots of questions prepared, you may end up asking more questions than answering questions.
Having a practice area of interest can really help AND hurt you. As soon as you express a certain interest, you may be forever labeled as the "IP person" in the interviewer's mind. Works well, though, if the firm specializes in IP.
In the spirit of last year's 1L OCI panel, here is my response to the last comment:
I don't think having a public interest background on your resume is necessarily a bad thing. (And in many cases, you can't really take it off your resume - especially when that leaves you with nothing else.) When you describe those experiences, however, you should discuss the legal (or other translatable) skills you built, not the whales you saved - much like the previous commenter suggested.
You should also be prepared to be asked why you want to go into private practice, and you should have a good answer that does not involve the firm's commitment to pro bono. If the firm goes so far as to ask if you're okay defending evil corporations, you probably won't be getting a callback, but you didn't really want to work there anyway.
Bottom line is, don't be afraid of who you are. One of my best interviews was with a firm where my interviewer and I shared stories about our interactions with the Social Security Administration during our pro bono work. I got a callback there, and that firm is at the top of my list right now.
Here are my OCI suggestions for 1Ls (or me, when I re-read this firm during OCI next year if I don't get an offer):
- research the firms. the more you can show you know about a firm through a few choice cast-off remarks, the easier it is to avoid the "Why our firm" question.
- bullshit isn't necessarily bad. Interviewers expect, and are comforted by, a certain level of bullshit in your answers to their questions. part of the skill set they are trying to measure is how good of a bullshitter you are. if a firm asks "why our firm?" DO NOT SAY "honestly, all firms are basically the same to me" even if you mean it. honesty will get you very little at the screening interview stage. flatter the firm. mention something good about them.
- pay it forward. if an interviewer asks you a trick question, it is your duty to tell the person following you (and anyone else you recognize on the schedule) about it. there were MANY times in which i was adequately prepared for an interview because someone who interviewed earlier prepped me (two of my callbacks happened this way). PAY IT FORWARD. help the next person and it will all work out in the end.
- if you really want a callback and feel that the interview went well and you connected with the interviewer, SEND A THANK YOU E-MAIL. This goes against what CDO says, but has worked for me on two occasions. It's likely the case that the interviewer has to select 5 students from a crop of 10 that she really wants to call back. by sending a personal note, you assure you are in that top five.
- take advantage of rivalries and inferiority issues within firms. if you know X firm, Y firm and Z firm consider themselves the key movers in a specific geographic area or practice area, say "I'm interested in _____, so my decision is between your firm and Y and Z." When you suggest a rival firm is interested in you, the firm you are interviewing with immediately gets interested. This might sound ridiculous, but it worked for me on several occasions.
- have some self-esteem. Even if you got straight Ps, you are still arguably in the top 60% at the sixth best law school in America. A firm won't ask "Why all the Ps?" unless you give them reason to believe you aren't serious or don't know your shit.
- if you are short on time, it's better to research your interviewer than the firm.
I have to echo something that 10:34 said. You've got to pay it forward when you leave a room. Its just a common courtesy, and people notice when you don't do it, and they don't forget. I can think of a least a few people I have a lasting dislike for.
Callback interviews are very similar to a series of OCI interviews except 1) they might expect you to know more about the firm, 2) they can be a bit longer, 3) very often the folks whose offices they send you to are not necessarily the most sparkling personalities (like they try to send to OCIP) so you have to pull your own weight in keeping the conversation going.
Like on-campus interviews, they vary from discussing your writing sample to your thoughts on patent reform to sports and where to get the best frozen yogurt. I got the sense that they were mostly looking for fit and possibly something like "poise."
A lot of the 1L advice above ranges from questionable to outright wrong. Except for the obvious stuff like thank you notes. For real: Taking public interest off your resume? This (along with some of the other advice) is someone's attempt to rationalize their lack of callback--and this is what they came up with. Very likely wrong. Public interest work is WAY more likely to help and NOT that likely to hurt. Researching the interviewer instead of the firm? Sure, if you want to spend 20-30 minutes looking like a pandering sycophant. Pitting rival firms against each other? Hmm, sounds strangely similar to Cosmo's advice for catching a man. Firms don't require "a challenge" in order to want you. Their desire to hire you doesn't have anything to do with whether another firm might want you too.
The best advice to a 1L is don't waste your time worrying about next year's OCIP and focus on getting great grades. And if you have great grades, don't spend anther moment worrying about it.
12:04 beat me to it. Get good grades. 95% of the rest is spin.
I want to echo 12:04. All I had was public interest/government on my resume due to my prior work experience. (It was full-time, post-grad school so it could not be left off). I found that some hiring partners and recruiting people really liked it. Indeed, one was a partner at a very top firm. Not surprisingly, those are the places I did well. I had other places respond somewhat rudely or ignorantly about it. At the end of the day, you can't help what you did before. You should not have to hide who you are to get a job. Any firm that would exclude someone because they dared to do something for the public good is probably not somewhere you want to work.
I wish you all luck!
"Even if you got straight Ps, you are still arguably in the top 60% at the sixth best law school in America."
Whuh? If you have straight P's, you are DEFINITELY in the BOTTOM 60%.
While the odds are clearly against you, there is the statistical possibility that someone can be ranked at the 59th percentile with all P's. It depends on everyone elses grades.
When you are an ass, at least make sure you are right.
That assumes the 1L curve continues all throughout, which it certainly does not. It also assumes that 60% of the population will NEVER get any grade above a P. If you think that's "statistically" possible, well, I'd like you to meet my unicorn. It's statistically possible.
How much time is too much time in between getting a callback offer and calling the firm to actually schedule it? I received a few callback offers last week, but I've been so busy that I haven't managed to schedule the callbacks yet.
How rude am I?
Winston & Strawn, SF-
Covington, DC-, SF-
Bad mail day.
Presumably you are not actually THAT busy and what you mean is you are waiting to hear from everyone else before you schedule. What you want to do in this situation is get in touch with the firms' recruiters and tell them you're really excited about the callback and you're looking forward to scheduling one but you haven't been able to get your flyback week schedule in order quite yet. Ask would they mind if you call the end of the week/beginning of next week/etc. Although, if a firm is at the top of your list and you think you may not be a sure thing, you should probably go ahead and schedule to show your interest. If my initial presumption is wrong and you really do consider yourself too busy to make a five minute phone call to secure a job for this summer, I would suggest getting a clue.
I know this has been mentioned a little, but I was hoping to get a little advice. I scheduled a callback in LA over my flyback week. The firm is very important to me, and I'm a little worried that by doing it that late I am putting myself at a disadvantage. Should I move it up? Does it really make that big of a difference?
Yes, move your important interview up. Most firms (though not all) have some kind of limited number of offers and give them out on a rolling basis. The later you go in the process, the fewer spots remain. And like rolling admission in college admissions, it gets more competitive later in the game (i.e. they are more stingy with spots for borderline cases later). If you want to confirm this, you could always ask the recruiter if there’s any disadvantage to coming later (since you are especially interested in their firm). They’ll likely be straight with you. But when in doubt, go earlier.
When the recruiter, trying to schedule your call-back interview, asks you about whether you have any preferences as to who you would like to speak with at the firm, what kinds of answers do people give? specific people? practice areas? probono folks? anything?
Should I be skeptical of my callback with a firm if I know for a fact that it no-offered a substantial portion of its summer class last year? Why would they continue recruiting for next summer if they felt too tight to offer very many jobs at the end of last summer?
I'd think most commonly you'd ask to speak to someone in your preferred practice group to ask what kind of cases they get to do. You could also ask to speak to a woman with children, a lawyer who is active in pro bono, someone with a similar background to yours in terms of education, a person of a similar ethnic background or sexual orientation, etc. You want to talk to the folks that can get your concerns addressed and your questions answered. If you have none, say you don't have any preferences and look forward to whatever schedule they set up for you.
Regarding no-offers, you have to investigate why. Go to the blogs, talk to anyone you might know there (or find someone who knows someone who works there). And once you have an offer, you could even express your concern to the firm itself and see what their explanation is. But if they no-offered because of the economy or because they over-estimated their hiring needs, that's sketchy to me. For one, I wouldn't want to take the chances on a firm that does that. And two, firms are AWARE of the effect no-offering large numbers of students has on recruitment and if they still did it...maybe they're really in money trouble....
Asking the firm won't help. Many times a firm will no-offer and tell the summer that it was because "they were too quiet" or "they were too loud."
Then they no-offer 40% of their class. Sound good to you?
Asking the firm WILL help if you don't take their answer and accept it like a monkey.
If they say they no-offered 40% of the class because they were "too loud" you know they are in financial trouble. And liars. And bad liars.
If they say that they gave no offers to a half dozen people because they were dead-set on working in corporate at the end of the summer and the firm only had openings in the litigation department...that's like something you could work with in gauging your own risk.
And anyone who is no-offered because they are "too quiet" or "too loud" should realize that the firm is probably having a hard time saying they didn't do good work. Maybe the economy contributed to the need to eliminate a few extra summers, but no firm is so concerned about fit that they'd send the the quiet competent guy away and keep the appropriately-volumed person that can't form a coherent thought. "Too quiet" is how they let you down easy...
"Those of you who were unable to attend today's presentation about Callbacks may want to check out the CDO's online publication on the topic..."
I would suggest not watching the video, though.
12:49:
I agree for the most part, but I know for a fact that at least one firm no-offered based on personality---completely regardless of that SA's work quality. I assume there are others.
If waiting until flyback week to go to callbacks will hurt us, why doesn't the school move flyback week up? How much are we hurting our chances by waiting?
The comment above analogizing call-backs to rolling admissions is fairly reckless. Unlike law schools, the firms are the ones pay you (at least your costs) to interview you. They would not do this if you didn't have a legitimate offer. They are mindful of their numbers when they do on-campus interviews and make call-back offers. There might be an issue on the margins, but we're talking a very small number of people who effectively do not get the benefit of the doubt.
Bear in mind, that Boalt has moved up its OCIP schedule substantially, as have other schools, to address these concerns when it matters--during the on-campus interviews. It's a stressful process, but you'll get through it. No need to go crazy.
I had my first callback interview today and more than one of the interviewers asked me what other firms I was doing callbacks with. What is the proper etiquette on this point? I felt very un-classy telling them all the other firms I was interviewing with, but at the same time I did not want to compromise my integrity by lying. What should I do if this happens again?
8:47 - the answer to that question should confirm (a) you're looking at the same geographic market; (b) looking at peer firms / that you know what the peer firms are; and (c) your interview with them isn't a fluke and that you're successful with other firms too.
My answer would rarely name more than one or two, and would almost say simply "I'm very focused on mid to large firms in [this geographic market]." Or something equivalent.
Orrick SF- via phone.... ew.....
A word of advice: Read the letters you receive from firms closely. I was really surprised to get a MAYBE letter from a firm yesterday. "We were very impressed with you and are evaluating our needs, as we have a very small summer class. We hope to get back to you soon."
Oh gosh, I HATED the "personal" rejection call from Orrick last year.
Note to Orrick: we know you mean well, but really, cut it out. It's awkward (and vaguely mean) to get our hopes up by calling and then immediately rejecting us.
That's what dating is for, after all.
Yes, be skeptical of a firm if you know for a fact that it no-offered a substantial portion of its summer class last year.
It indicates that either:
1) They are struggling financially.
2) They make poor business/HR/PR decisions.
I've seen a "-" next to a firm for a while, but I haven't received word yet. Does that mean that I'm borderline or that they forgot to mail me my rejection?
I am starting to think my one callback was a fluke. Though, I am still waiting for my rejection letters to arrive - especially the ones from the firms I interviewed with the first week. Ah, the waiting game is never fun.
Anyone have any words of wisdom or things to look out for when potentially joining a merged firm?
Anonymous said...
I think the main thread got stuck on 200 comments. Is there a way to display more?
I don't know what's wrong with the thread, but Anon is right -- it's stuck at 200. I'm going to cull the less useful comments to cut the number down to 170 or so.
2:17, "borderline" isn't really the right way to think about it. If you see a ding next to a firm and you haven't heard anything yet, it means you made the initial cut and are in the running, but they are not sure yet if they can extend you a callback. Their decision is more likely to depend on the number of slots they think they will have than it does with you specifically. Hang in there!
About "merged" firms--ask to meet associates/partners from both sides of the merger. Ask if their teams are integrated or if they're still working with their "original" co-workers. Ask about how smooth the transition was, how many people left, how retention has been since the merger. Some of these questions may be better left until after you have a callback, but that's the kind of information you probably would need to figure out how well the merger has gone.
Also, if the merger wasn't too recent, there should be fewer issues and more integration, but you never know.
Thanks, that all seems like good advice. Problem is, the merger is not closing until January 01, 2009.
You will probably be able to tell a lot about the future merger in your interviews with younger associates. Have they already removed the art from their office walls? Are all their personal effects in a box in the corner?
You will likely end the callback by having a meal with some younger associates. This is probably a good time to mention it, if everything else seems to be going well. Start with asking little small-talk questions, like whether they know if their e-mail addresses are going to change, and work up to more substantive questions -- like the merging or reorgnization of practice areas is going to have an effect on their day-to-day activities. younger associates won't let you board a sinking ship -- they will be straight with you.
Is it possible that Holme, Roberts, and Owen just hasn't got back to people yet? I'm still kind of holding out hope on that one.
8:51: me too!! i loved HRO, i wish they'd reply one way or the other.
Is the week after flyback week too late to schedule a callback?
Bingham McCutchen Boston has sunk to a new low - they are sending rejection letters out to people that didn't even apply to them.
What makes it even better, I am now apparently a Mr. even though last time I checked I was clearly female.
I wonder how Bingham goes about getting a list of students that didn't apply with them.
1:26 here
well i bid on them during ocip but canceled my interview like the day the interview lists came out. but my letter read: "I enjoyed meeting you at Berkeley on September 3, 2008."
If the Sedgwick callback is anything like the Sedgwick screening interview, I want no part of it.
When a host firm gives you a meal per diem, can you safely assume that that is what you may spend on meals throughout your trip, or should you check with each firm you're visiting individually?
Is there any good way to figure out who else has gotten offers from a particular firm once you get an offer? I can't really think of a polite way to find out, but I'm just wondering about the personalities of the other people that I might be working with....
Has anyone heard from P-side firms that interviewed at OCIP? I know that's what this list is for, but I'm not sure if the P-side firms are included. Thanks.
Anyone have recommendations for traveling with a suit or two over callback week? I know wearing it is a big no-no, unless you want to come off the plane a wrinkly mess. I was thinking of getting a carry-on garment bag to carry two suits and a couple dress shirts. Does anyone have recommendations for a good carry-on garment bag (or where to get one)? Or any alternative solutions that have worked well?
A garment bag is probably your best bet. I would imagine you could find one at any place that sells luggage . . .try Target or Macys. They even have garment bags which function as a piece of luggage, so you could check it if you were forced to.
Some people swear by wrapping items of clothing in plastic, and then rolling them (no folding) and placing in a suitcase. You might do a test case on a dress shirt and see what happens, but I wouldn't try it on a suit.
The male partners with whom I work always wear their suits on the plane b/c it's been their experience that the suits will be less wrinkled that way. But this approach may depend on the quality of the suit.
Good luck!
I've found that bundle wrapping works well, and I've traveled w/ a suit in an overhead carry on bag.
See http://www.onebag.com/pack.html to explain the packing method.
Many of those wheeled garment bags are small enough to carry on, right? (I've been looking online a bit, and many of them have dimensions like 44x23x7, but I assume that's opened...)
Is it safe to assume that at this point -- almost ten days since OCI ended -- that all callback offers have been made? I have still not heard from a number of firms who haven't shown up here -- like Farella, Howrey, Hanson Bridgett and OMM SF . . .
Bingham McCutchen SV+
... Call back invite came a week after an email rejection...
word to the wise...heller is canceling boaltie callbacks.
Bartko, SF+
Callback came this morning, so firms are still calling!
While I put my suit in my rolly bag. As soon as I get to the hotel, I take it out, hang it in the bathroom, turn on the hot water to high and close the door. In about 10 minutes the steam will take out all the wrinkles.
Would anyone else be interested in a separate 2008 OCIP Offer/Acceptance thread, or would that just ratchet up the anxiety even further?
It would be nice to know the number of callbacks scheduled, offers made and offers accepted, like so:
Smith & Smith LA 5/4/1
Each person could post the results of their callbacks when they are learned, so an offer would look like:
Smith & Smith LA 1/1/1
and a rejection would be
Smith & Smith LA 1/1/0
And then one of the trusty moderators would have to add the numbers as they come in.
Bad idea?
My understanding is that some of those stats, from past years, can be obtained from the CDO.
I'm open-minded, but from my point of view it seems sort of late in the game for that information to be useful (i.e., at this point it is unlikely to help anyone revise their interviewing strategy). But my primary concern pertains to anonymity -- I don't want to out anybody.
I don't think there's enough self-reported data for a callback thread. Not to mention that I certainly wouldn't want to be dealing with that.
Oh, and thanks for the AmLaw website rankings. We should have a thread discussing that. I know I looked at plenty of awful websites during OCI...
Lieff Cabraser SF -
Not unexpected, but still a bummer.
does anyone know the name of the interviewer at OCI from Pillsbury's SFO office?
I got a call from her, but she didn't leave her name in the message, and I'm trying to find her email address!
thanks!
Pull up your interview schedule in b-line.
What is with the ding letter from a firm I bid on but didn't get an interview with during OCIP? Ouch.
Wachtell? Nice.
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