2009 OCIP Callbacks
[We are very close to the comments limit on this thread, so I have closed it. (Google Blogger goes nuts and tries to ruin our lives when the max number is hit. Seriously.) Please use this thread to post your callbacks, dings, OCIP-related questions, and answers.]
Still unsure? Here is a short explanation: people seem to think it's helpful to learn whether firms are calling back as soon as possible. This thread is designed to satiate that obsessive desire (hey, I had it too) by publicly disseminating that information as quickly as possible. To make it work, everybody has to play -- if you get a callback, post that information anonymously into the comments. Please format it like this:
On a policy note, Armen's remarks from four years ago are relevant: if this thread makes you feel anxious or uncomfortable, just click on by. You'll miss very little of substance, and you'll spare yourself a few weeks of fractious discontent. If you find the thread useful that's great, but you are likely kidding yourself: you will learn nothing here about your callbacks that wasn't going to come to you by phone or mail, anyway. Lastly, while I can't claim to know all of the class of 2011, those I have met are beyond talented; I continue to wonder on a near-daily basis how I landed among such a talented and personable group of human beings -- you are going to blow this thing out of the water!
Here are the callbacks.
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This is the 2009 OCIP callback thread. If you are unsure about what that might mean, look here, and here.Still unsure? Here is a short explanation: people seem to think it's helpful to learn whether firms are calling back as soon as possible. This thread is designed to satiate that obsessive desire (hey, I had it too) by publicly disseminating that information as quickly as possible. To make it work, everybody has to play -- if you get a callback, post that information anonymously into the comments. Please format it like this:
[Firm Name], [Firm City], [+/-]Here is a longer explanation:
+ means you got a callback.
- means you did not get a callback.
(a) When you get a callback or a ding (ding = a rejection), look to see if that information has been included in the main post. If not, post it into the comments using the following format: Firm Name, City, + or - to indicate offer or ding respectively.Please pay attention to (a), folks. The CDO anticipates more than 5,000 interviews during the next two weeks. Although I plan to stay on my toes, it will be magnificently unhelpful if you flood the comments with results that are cryptic, ambiguous, or already posted. Spare me that, if you can.
(b) I will move your information into the main body of the thread. After adding the information, I will delete comments that state only an offer or a ding. I will also delete comments that I find counterproductive to a supportive, positive OCI process for everyone. I know that bothers people sometimes, but I'll offer a trump card - I will not delete any comment posted under your full, real name.
(c) I will keep comments that offer something substantive, ask or answer a question, or crack me up with jaded cynicism.
On a policy note, Armen's remarks from four years ago are relevant: if this thread makes you feel anxious or uncomfortable, just click on by. You'll miss very little of substance, and you'll spare yourself a few weeks of fractious discontent. If you find the thread useful that's great, but you are likely kidding yourself: you will learn nothing here about your callbacks that wasn't going to come to you by phone or mail, anyway. Lastly, while I can't claim to know all of the class of 2011, those I have met are beyond talented; I continue to wonder on a near-daily basis how I landed among such a talented and personable group of human beings -- you are going to blow this thing out of the water!
Here are the callbacks.
Labels: OCIP/Employment
posted by Patrick Bageant at 7:38 AM
190 Comments:
Good luck, Boalties!
When did the Sheppard callbacks occur?
5:51,
This afternoon/evening via e-mail.
How did the Sheppard ding get notified?
Okay, I'm not trying to be holier than thou or anything, but the whole when-did-what-call-come-and-how? thing happens every year, and is profoundly unproductive. You WILL hear back one way or the other, and the nervous back and forth contributes to nothing but your own discontent, and my burden in managing this thread. M'kaayy?
Is it 5:00 somewhere? It's 5:00 right here folks. Time to chill and call it a night.
In case it was unclear, 7:15, that was obviously a:
Patrick, SF-
for you.
I'll concur with Patrick, but add the extra caveat that not all decisions are made at the same time. I just had a 2L friend at another law school tell me that she got dinged by firm x in the morning only to then tell me she got a call back. When I asked about the inconsistent news, she confessed that she simply assumed a ding because some callbacks had been made that morning. This isn't meant to give anyone false hopes, but the assumptions that underlie a question such as "who/when" are not necessarily true...or at least the assumptions necessary to make an answer to such a question meaningful.
I just like to know as much about the world around me as possible. This sense of unquashable curiosity and yearning for knowledge has propelled me into law school -- and hopefully, into your firm.
- 5.51
Take your own advice, Patrick, and ignore it if you don't want to hear it. Some people want to know.
Oh yeah...NOW I remember why I pawned this chore off to Patrick. Let's see a) ridiculous time commitment b) neurotics on one side who want to know everything and c) neurotics on the other who want to kill you for making them even more neurotic by even having the thread in the first place.
Yeah, have fun buddy. All yours.
is there a way to hide the results behind a cut? is this another thing people ask every year?
That is a really good idea, but thanks to Google Blogger there is no straightforward way to go about it. I agree, though - it would be REALLY nice way of keeping things short and simple.
2 OCIPs ago, I recieved a + (invitation for callback) over 3 months after OCIP and after I had already accepted somewhere else for summer. On the other hand, there are plenty of firms that I absolutely heard nothing back from at all after OCIP. So don't really infer anything from anything.
Maybe it's time to put this in a free wiki... Thn there would be no administrative overhead and people can bicker all they want off the front page. Sure veracity may be questionable, but it's not like the results are verified by a moderator anyways...
I don't want to be pessimistic, fearmongering, or anything else, but I've got to say that some of these interviews are going really weirdly. Not the "Oh, this is a new experience" kind of weird, but the "What the f^*# just happened?" kind of weird.
Anyone else feeling this way or getting this vibe? I know I'm being vague, but seriously: I interviewed as a 1L (but not for firms), and never did I ever get the "Employers can be very choosy" speech from an interviewer before.
okay, are any firms calling from blocked numbers? that would be messed up.
My callback was not from a blocked number.
My interviews haven't been too weird. Pretty standard actually. No one has said anything that remotely resembles "Employers can be very choosy."
I think there has been one particular interviewer who went on at length about the scarcity of jobs and how his firm has to fill very few slots with people from all law schools. I thought it was relatively strange, and possibly a little tactless. It's one thing to mention that firms are hiring less; it's another to spend more than half the interview rubbing it in.
I've definitely gotten the overwhelming impression from a number of firms that, unless you be the golden boy or girl, they are just going through the motions.
Sheppard Mullin+ (century city)- just got the call- I think these things are periodic and not too much info should be relied on in these posts- best of luck to all.
Has anyone who doesn't have an HH or two gotten a callback? Not to fan the flames in an already stress-filled oven, I'm just wondering what chance those of us in the middle of the pack stand. Thanks and good luck to all.
Almost all H's, no HH's, no callbacks yet. Not sure if grades are determinative, but from what I've heard so far about it being a "numbers game," maybe I should be more worried.
p's-ville, fenwick (sv) +, we just may make it
P's-ville, you are my hero.
F*ck yeah p-ville!
Callbacks can take a while to come in. Last year, some people who ended the process with many callbacks didn't hear anything the first week. Don't change your interview strategy or panic.
I love you P-Ville!
Can we hold a party for p's-ville?
I guess I'm not getting a Keker callback. Sad. But life goes on.
Do firms call back on any sort of a tiered system, i.e., they call their very top choices first before moving on to the people they maybe liked but didn't love?
If you look at the callbacks by region you may notice some trends- it seems LA firms have wrapped up their OCI circuits, Bay Area firms are starting to (A lot of the firms I spoke to said they were going to Stanford the next day), while DC firms probably have a longer process which probably includes some sort of tiered system.
Quick question. Does a ding mean that you actually got notified that you would not receive a callback? So does that mean all the "-" marks mean that folks were notified?
Is anyone else having the experience where the interview isn't asking for your transcript?
I can't figure out what this means.
Are they not interested in my grades? Or did they look at my resume and decide already that they weren't interested in me and didn't want to bother asking for my grades? Or are they all simply forgetting?
Haven't been in that position - everyone asks me for my grades. Some right when I sit down, some shortly before I leave. About half look at them during the interview.
Hey - to the person who got the Quinn + - did you interview with Adam and Melissa?
I think some interviewers simply forget. It doesn't make sense that they'd write you off simply by looking at your resume (unless your resume has something truly offensive on it); most places are, to say the least, extremely interested in the top of our class, so why would they pass you up without knowing whether you're in that category?
Only one of my interviewers so far hasn't asked about my transcript, and I'm 100% sure it was forgetfulness on her part.
Chadbourne parke- via email
Same here, 5:22.
It was very brief! LA office.
I know this is on the OCD side of the fence, but for the sake of ease of reference, let's use OC for any OC office and SV for any South Bay office.
does anyone think gibson SF is hiring? they seem to not have given CBs to anyone at other schools yet
as someone said above. Does a ding mean that you actually got notified that you would not receive a callback? So does that mean all the "-" marks mean that folks were notified?
Of course that's what it means . . . how could you know you didn't get a callback until someone notifies you?
gibson sf has been telling people they'd take 7-10 days.
wait, delete the above post (7:08). I've been misinformed!
7:09 - misinformed meaning they're doing callbacks sooner than that? or not hiring at all?
I doubt Gibson SF is just canceling their summer program. Patience!
7:09. please clarify
Sheppard Mullin (SF) - Heard that callbacks will continue to be made week of Aug 31. If you haven't yet gotten a ding, then you might still be in the game. Good luck Boalties!
thanks for the info, 11:47. How'd that ding arrive? And good luck yourself.
My Sheppard Mullin SF ding came via snail mail.
Why don't we just start our own lawfirm?
How are people doing?
7:19, it is not doing AT ALL. 14 interviews, zero callbacks. And not, I'm not weird or anything.
It is going alright so far. 7 interviews, 2 callbacks.
Even though other people seem to have gotten callbacks from firms that I interviewed with, I'm not willing to give up hope that I'll get a callback just yet.
7:43,
Hang in there. A lot of firms have not made callbacks yet. Things will probably just take longer this year.
7:47,
Mind giving us a rough sense of your grades?
This is 7:47. First semester all Ps. Second semester no Ps.
7:43- right there with you, and man does it suck. Even had high grades- mainly Hs, a few HHs. Maybe I'm weirder than I think, or smell funny. There's always Phase 2, I guess.
Hang in there everyone. It's not over until someone has told you no.
I've got half p's, an HH and the rest H. Even have an AmJur. 11 interviews, no callbacks. I spent the weekend sending out email apps around places in the country with which I have some sort of connection.
13 interviews. 2 HH's, 1 P, remainder H's. 1 ding, 0 callbacks. Crap.
Remember P's-ville.
8 interviews, 2.5 callbacks. It's not completely hopeless...
I know a lot of us have found this completely hopeless. But I hope your callbacks go well; you appear much better off than the rest of the pack.
2:44am - that's what she said
How are the transfer students doing with callbacks?
12:33, transfer here, lots of interviews, zero callbacks but zero dings so maybe all is not lost?
my guess would be that p's-ville is an awesome person going into patent or an awesome person who had some compelling explanation for her/his grades. i don't think that being an awesome person without some unique skill set or compelling excuse for having mostly p's would be enough for a callback this year - unless your mom or dad is the hiring partner!
To all you people that have already had 12-14 interviews, how did you already have so many interviews?
I've only had 8 so far, and only have 8 more next week. There is never anything available in open sign up, or at least nothing I qualify for (i.e. IP only) or nothing in markets I'm interested in/have a connection to.
1:28-
I think this is the key: "There is never anything available in open sign up, or at least nothing I qualify for (i.e. IP only) or nothing in markets I'm interested in/have a connection to."
I've had 13 interviews, 3 from open sign ups with 12 more scheduled, 3 of which came from open sign ups. No special qualifications but I'm open to anywhere near LA or SF, or NYC. And to be honest, I'm considering expanding further, say to DC or San Diego. I probably do have more connections to more cities than some though, to be honest.
I guess I should have opened myself up to LA as well but I have no connection there and wouldn't be able to explain why I want to be there. I know nothing about LA and have never even visited so I don't think I would be able to even make anything up.
If you can still finagle an interview slot, it could be worth a shot anyway. You could always find a way to say you're flexible about geography but really interested in their firm, or their LA office, for x reason. Probably easier to come up with something credible that way than by faking ties to the area.
Transfer here- one callback so far. I probably would have gotten more callbacks at my prior school, but honestly it is going to be tough going for all of us, even those w/ multiple callbacks, in the near future anyways. Getting a callback is not even half the battle, as the callback interviews, as well as the summer programs, will likely be very competitive.
I came here thinking have a Boalt JD would pay off in the longterm, so much though that I gave up a scholarship, and still believe that to be true. Eventually the cream rises to the top.
I haven't had people badger me about wanting to work in locations with which I have little or no connection. Just say what you like about that office, e.g. its practice in X or Y.
Then again, I haven't received any callbacks (or dings) yet.
12:33,
2 CBs.
3L here. I don't know if this will reassure anyone -- I realize it's a tougher year this year -- but for what it's worth, last year I had zero callbacks after the first week of OCIP. I was terrified and infuriated; I signed up for, and attended, some insane number of interviews during the second week; I regretted ever applying to law school. And I eventually got seventeen callbacks. The OCIP process involves a lot of randomness and a lot of weird timing, and you shouldn't worry too much if things look bleak at this point.
Good luck to all.
I want to echo what 9:01 said. I don't think I got a single callback in the first week, and got a little worried. I ended up getting 13 and getting 9 offers.
There were a lot of firms that took a huge amount of time to get back to me with a callback. Gibson took forever.
It's NOT all about grades. It's not all about law review. Grades help with some snooty firms (Keker, Irell, Munger, Quinn, etc.) but I think there are a handful of firms that do not care about grades at all. I don't think Skadden cares about grades. I'm not sure Sidley did either.
I do think firms are looking for a certain personality in the interviews -- what John Steele calls "the happy joiner." The person who has good things to say about everything and every past job. The person who seems excited about what the firm does, but also subservient to the firm a little bit.
Don't be too honest in this process. This is a game, and both sides know the rules. The firm knows you are putting your very best foot forward and telling a candy-coated version of your past. Don't badmouth a former employer. Find something nice to say about any past experience you are asked about.
Have pat answers to these questions:
- Why law?
- Why the Ps?
- Why no law review?
- What is your biggest failure? (I got asked a version of this in at least 5 different interviews).
- Discuss a challenge you have overcome?
- What is the last non-law book you read?
- Why us? (I found it really helpful to know some tidbit--however superficial--about a firm really helped. Know what a firm's practice areas are; know who their "star" partners are).
Don't be too cocky. The firms aren't looking for the "best" students. They are looking for a combination of work ethic, creativity, social skill, judgment and attention to detail. They don't care if you were the #1 best shot putter in college or the #8. What they care about is that you woke up early for practice and were really committed to shot putting.
Don't ask deep probing questions. I would not ask about a firm's financial outlook. It is probably not something the firm is being 100% honest with itself about, and there is a good chance the associate interviewing you has no real clue. There is also a very good chance that the outlook is not good and you will put the interviewer in a uncomfortable position of having to sugar-coat things. Last year, I asked Heller about the rumors of a dissolution. I got a very uncomfortable mush-mouthed response.
Take everything seriously. Look really good. Make sure your suit fits great. Make sure your hair looks great. Make sure your fingernails are trimmed and cleaned. People don't get dinged for having dirty fingernails, but every interviewer is trying to choose 5 people to give callbacks to out of 30 (adjust numbers as needed to reflect reality). Part of their decision will be subconscious and be a product of whatever prejudices and proclivities they bring into the interview).
Finally, stand out. At the end of the day, the conversation between the two interviewers will go something like this:
Interviewer 1: So, who did we like?
Interviewer 2: I liked UN girl from Harvard.
I1: Yeah, she was great. I also liked waterpolo guy.
I2: Saxophonist IP guy was pretty cool too. . .
I1: The girl who knew that we filed amicus briefs in In Re Marriage was cool too . .
They are not saying "I think mostly Hs was good, but maybe girl with three HHs is better." They are identifying you based on what they remembered about the interview.
Be something more than a collection of Ps, Hs and HHs. Have something on your resume that is interesting.
I'm about to make a depressing comment, so you might want to skim on by. Fair warning.
But first, why did 10:59 get such a long comment? I couldn't even come close on the DE / Yoo statement post. Grr.
Moving on. 10:59 offers a very good synopsis and set of take-aways from last year's OCIP and I agree with pretty much everything he or she said. If this was last year I would put that comment front and center on the first top page of the blog. But things really are different this year. Last year there were a whole lot more firms to choose from, which meant there were many, many more interviews (and corresponding callback offers) to go around. Open signups, which were common last year, are akin to a mythical creature this year. By way of evidence, I'd point to the list of callbacks -- last year at the end of week one it was about three times longer than this year's list. On a far more subjective note, the feeling in Hotel Durant this year is, well, deflated. It's hard to describe, but it really does feel like everyone there (students, lawyers, recruiters, and even the beer waitresses in Henry's) are going through the motions.
The point I want to make starts with the same old drab observation: this year is different. What people mean when they say that, is this year there will be plenty of people with interesting resumes, big brains, quick wits, humble personalities, and so on and so forth who will struggle or fail to land jobs at OCIP. But that's not the point I want to make. The point that I want to convey is that if OCIP doesn't work out for you this year it is not you. The entire BigLaw market is literally imploding, and people all over the country are going through the same thing.
That's cold comfort right now, when all you really want is a flippin' job already, but it's the reality. Ten years from now you'll talk about what a crappy recruiting year this was, and maybe pass on some lesson's learned. But in the meantime, keep plugging through it and know that something will pan out. It really will.
Annnnd I'm off the paternal soapbox and calling it a night. Last thought: tap into the upperclassmen and women however you can. We may not be able to get you a job, but we really want to help you in whatever way we can. You should use us for anything you can think of.
Can someone combine those two Jones Day listings? It's been driving me crazy.
Did Patrick just advise 2Ls to tap upperclassmen and women?
I don't think that will get them a job, but I guess it might feel better afterwards.
carbolic you have been so silent lately i thought maybe the ceiling had collapsed in your cave. you must have dug your way out. too bad. patrick is right about things being much worse at the hotel durant this year. i know because i am unlucky enough to interview there both years. this year is brutal for everyone and even as a no-offered 3l i feel terrible for the 2ls. one thing we have not seen is a list of firms to avoid. for my money they are o'mm, fish, caldwalder, pillsbury, and orrick. not that many of us will have a choice anyway.
A good 80% of my firms haven't showed up on this list yet. It's weird.
Continued luck to all, and don't despair. How many of you really came to law school thinking "My mental wellbeing, ego and professional future all depend on the two weeks when I interview with BigLaw?". Very few I guess.
I know its easy to get caught up in the hype. We're all competitive and not used to "failing" in professional/academic endeavors. In addition, there are always bills to pay. With that said though, this isn't the first challenge you've faced, and it wont be the last. Just continue to be the hardworking person who was admitted to Berkeley Law, and you will be a success, regardless of whether you get a callback from a firm that sounds like a poopy-fart (Im looking at you Shartsis).
Oh, and btw, a couple p's, no HH's, 12 interviews, and 1 cb. Don't despair, your p-ness doesn't put you out of the running (that's what she said).
"avoid OMM" - explain? i thought they were doing okay
The only thing you guys should be "avoiding" right now is pegging firms in such manner.
Focus on practice areas, locations, and firm fit. You can worry about that other stuff (which mostly amounts to rumors) once you've got a couple offers to compare.
does anybody have an idea of what getting a callback means this year (in terms of chances for getting an offer)? more or less of a good omen than in the past?
I love this thread. I hate this thread.
Did TJ just advise...oh, forget it.
9:28: That's exactly what happened. It was a brutal dig out of that cave-in. I'm sorry that your caps lock key didn't make it.
Another P's ville here. Callback. I like! Great success!
I overheard today that Gibson Dunn has a strict No-P's policy. Is this true? Not even one? Does anyone know?
8:41,
Where did you hear that? From whom?
I got a callback from Gibson last year and I had 2 Ps..that may have changed though
Just some people in the student center. Was doing some reading and I got interested when I heard it.
Thanks for the responses. Rumors spread like wildfire and it's good to hear even anecdotes to refute them.
I heard that callbacks this year would occur inside of a locked cage where two applicants enter and one leaves, all while associates and partners hanging on the outside of the cage passed weapons into the thunderdom...uh...I mean callback interview.
9:00,
Where did you hear that? From whom? Please confirm.
gonna go ahead and openly question the CHG abbreviation, presumably for Chicago
Boo Cooley!
Eh, not a big deal - they no offered a lot of their summer associates this past summer. Not cool, Cooley.
GDC did not have a no-Ps policy before this year (I got an offer with 2 Ps), but they'll probably be more selective this year.
Take-away point, 8:41, is that you're probably not getting a CB
10:52, that's right, CHG = Chicago.
Last year I tried "CH" but there were firms interviewing for Beijing offices and CH was confused for China.
2:31, I don't know for sure but I suspect the "avoid OMM" remark is rooted in the no-offer they handed down to at least one very fine Boalt 3L.
Farella SF +
Patrick,
Do you know which office the OMM no-offer happened in?
How did the Farella callback happen?
9:04,
Via phone call early this morning.
Just a quick note, Patrick's away for the day so I'm filling in on this thread. So if he doesn't answer your questions immediately, be patient. Likewise, I may not update the main post as lightning fast as Patrick, so please glance through the recent comments to see if your callback or ding has already been posted.
Oh and if you have a callback in LA, bring your seasonal ash coat.
Is it standard for firms to notify us of dings? Or is that too lowly of communication for some? It would be nice to know at least.
I had 12 interviews last week and I have heard NOTHING. No callbacks, no dings. Sometimes I feel like these firms don't care about my feelings...
I have this very vivid memory of that law-school deciding period and reading this review: "Coming out of Boalt, the world is your oyster!"
HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHA.
gimme my money back / i want my money back / and don't forget to give me back that 1L year!
does anyone else feel it is effed that we've had tuition raised when the value of what we're getting has dropped by, i don't know, 40%? especially considering the fact that we are in no position to bargain? i mean, they know we didn't sign up for this...
Can I sue them under promissory estoppel?
Let's sue under intentional infliction of emotional distress.
How did the Goodwin SF callback happen?
I've done about 14 interviews so far and hadn't heard a peep from any firms until about 30 minutes ago. Ding from WilmerHale (L.A. and Palo Alto). Ps, one H, one HH.
Can we get an idea of what grades people have who are/aren't getting callbacks? I have 1 HH, 2 Hs, 3 Ps, did 13 interviews last week: no callbacks, 2 dings.
Half Ps, half Hs, I have two call backs in a big market outside of California. Keep hope. Smile in interviews. Call backs are coming more slowly this year but they ARE coming.
Let me just quickly interject and respond to 10:08. I understand the anxiety you're feeling right now with no callbacks. I'm just not sure what you are asking for is of any utility to you or anyone else. What do you possibly hope to learn? Are we going to ignore the geographic markets people are interested in? The different firms and even different offices within firms? Are we also assuming that resumes and interview skills matter not? The time of day of your interview?
Aside from the lack of utility, it just strikes me as a bit unbecoming. This isn't what Boalt is about.
With that said, if there's enough interest, I'm sure Patrick would be happy to design one of his famous surveys to do an OCIP post-mortem that will account for many of the variables I mentioned above. That's my $0.02.
Okay, I'm back. Armen, how bad did this thread make you miss me?
I second most of Armen's remarks - you are all being screwed by the market, but it's not exactly a scientific screwing. There is no magic grade threshold, below which everybody is in trouble and above which everybody is safe. There is no rule for how many H's equal an offer. There is no breaking point, below which it is more rational to invest your Stafford Loan money on the lottery than in your dry cleaning, even though all of us have felt that way at times.
The reality is that some people are getting no bites despite great grades, while others are getting callbacks in spite of average ones. Sure, we all know that better grades are better, but the decision in close cases (which is what you really care about) comes down to soft factors like personality and presence during the screening interview, and is impossible to predict with something as crude as a GPA. So please, stop worrying about grades for now. Focus on things you can change and try not to obsess over the things you can't.
I just want to calm my neuroses. should we be writing thank you letters?
11:00, there is some discussion on this thread, and at Armen's 10:39 comment on this thread.
I've never sent a thank you note because, given my skill set, the risk of a typo outweighs what I personally believe is a speculative benefit.
Lastly, and controversially, my personal opinion thank you notes from female applicants have less chance for weirdness than thank you notes from male applicants, although I realize that is rather sexist.
[See? The danger is real. Note the typos in my comment.]
has anyone heard anything at all from greenberg traurig?
I am a huge believer in thank you notes. And yes, the idea that thank you notes are better coming from women is completely sexist.
The idea that thank you notes coming from women are better is completely sexist. But that's not what I said.
What I said was, notes from women are less likely to be seen as weird than are notes from men. Granted, the seer who makes that distinction is being sexist and unreasonable, but nevertheless, some seers will do so.
Truthfully, most law firms have interviewers give their feedback on you long before your thank you note will get there (by email or snail mail). So it won't make a difference.
(I'm an associate so this is from my personal experience, of course, all firms have different processes).
whats wrong with being sexy
What does SV mean?
Silicon Valley ...
Anyone here tired of OCIP?
hear hear!
I love OCIP. My favorite part is the dominoe effect of the knocks every 20 minutes. Like Music to my ears.
Sheppard Mullin OC-
The Sheppard ding, via snail mail, was written by the OC hiring partner and stated that they "unfortunately will not be able to pursue employment with [me] at the Orange County office."
I know this is sheer optimism, but my interview was for both the OC and Del Mar offices, and I voiced a 60-40 preference for Del Mar. I noticed that no one has reported a ding from the Del Mar offices.
Any chance (however slight) that I'm still being considered there?
F'n Sheppard Mullin ding via snail mail. Not getting a job.
what 9:02 said.
If this trend keeps up (i.e. if the tiered callback system doesn't become more generous), I think a definite post-mortem for OCIP, at least with regard to all the no-callbacks, is in order. I and many others have a feeling that about 10% of the students have 80% of the callbacks. Not sure if this is historically common, but it seems weird.
This is probably all the result of a bad economy, and previous years would have looked much like this if there just weren't enough CB's to go around.
If this trend continues, it will be interesting to see if Boalt and other schools adjust their incoming class sizes accordingly. Interesting NYT article linked to ATL that basically says there are too many law students nowawadays...
While this sucks for all of us, imagine students at signicantly lower-ranked private schools- huge debt and nothing they can do about it.
I'm so sorry for this year's OCIP candidates. I can tell you from the inside that we are cutting way back on hiring. But life on the inside is not always so good.
--Associate on endless doc review.
I'm fortunate enough to have gotten a few callbacks, but I only know one other student that has gotten a callback so far. Most everyone else I know has gotten nothing.
They haven't gotten dinged yet either though so that's good, right? Right?????
I have received a CB from EVERY firm I interviewed with. I have ALL Ps from Golden Gate, PLUS once I killed a stripper who was carrying my child.
Wow, the Kirkland SF CBs came on the same day they did layoffs. Really poor form.
10:32,
Boalt has had the same class size since well before the 70's oil embargo. I doubt very much that this recession would change it.
Schools will continue to take the same number of students unless their admission numbers (LSAT/GPA etc.) take a hit. For Boalt, I doubt this is an issue.
there aren't too many law students. there are too many law students at schools that are spending money on academic scholarship rather than teaching. berkeley is one of the few schools that can probably afford to continue that approach even if these economic conditions are a permanent structural change.
I posted a comment right after McWho, then thought "meh," and deleted it. I shouldn't have.
People should realize that schools are much less concerned with whether the supply of lawyers exceeds the demand than they are with staying in the black. As the economy slows, budgets shrink, and charitable giving declines, schools (all schools - rank has nothing to do with this) are going to consider boosting their cash flow by increasing enrollment. Whether and to what degree graduates will find work does not bear on that type of decision. If you think that's overly cynical, consider that the UC system, whose missions is to educate Californians, plans to enroll more out of staters (necessarily at the cost of instate access to the schools) in order to maximize tuition per student.
Although these two pieces by Bill Henderson are sobering reading, if you are interested in the economics of law school and how the changing economy might affect legal education, you will want to read them:
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/legal_profession/2009/09/historical-perspective-on-the-bleak-entry-level-law-market.html
http://www.abanet.org/yld/tyl/july08/july08.pdf
John Steele
Finally a CB. Jones Day (PA) by voicemail some time this morning. Ps, 1H, 1HH.
There is hope.
yay congrats! was this a rolling CB or the first PA callback
WilmerHale, DC, -
personalized email was a nice touch I guess. but that's not really much consolation to me.
We are approaching the maximum number of comments on this thread. I will continue to cull comments that contain little substance, but heads up: I'm going to be a bit more ruthless about it. For example, comments asking when callbacks occurred, or how, are not particularly useful and will be deleted. Comments that crack me up will, of course, stay front-and-center.
So, you want to sneak those types of queries in, figure out a way to be funny about it.
Patrick,
Would it be possible to start a new thread with all the current CBs listed in the body? It might be easier than constantly having to cull comments.
4:42, the thread is already structured that way, unless I misunderstand you. The most time consuming part of this operation is posting the callbacks into the body. Deletion, on the other hand, is a mere click away.
Patrick,
Sorry, I mean creating a post called "2009 OCIP Callbacks Part II" and copying all the aggregated callback information from this current posting into it.
Yes, it could come to that.
Unsolicited advice from a junior associate/recent Boalt grad: when you are on a callback to a firm that works in a specialized area, pretend like you are very interested in that area and want to do that kind of law. And if you can't pull that off, at least ask a million questions about that area or show that you understand the area and are interested in it. I'm amazed by brilliant kids coming in and fully admitting that they have no prior interest in our area of law. That person, no matter how brilliant, is going to get beat out by an equally brilliant person who is interested in our area of law.
Patrick,
If by maximum comments you mean the number allowed by Blogger, then I say start a new post. But if by maximum comments you mean the number at which they start to "wane," I ask that you keep posting our comments as many firms this year (particularly out of Bay area ones) said they will be making decisions over a week's time, making the end of all hope come at least at the end of next week (or even a one week from Wednesday Sept. 9 at the latest).
Thank you.
Yes, yes, it's the number allowed by blogger. Hang in there, we're not going to leave you high and dry. I promise.
When the thread starts to push 190 comments I will start a new post. :)
Quinn Emanuel, SF, - via snail mail.
What a glorious surprise waiting for me at home, after a long day of interviewing!
And for anyone else applying outside of OCIP, Fulbright & Jaworski, LA, - same way. FWIW.
True Story:
So I'm standing outside my interview room waiting for my 5:20 interview, and I hear two Simpson Thacher interviewers talking -- one interviewing for the LA office and the other interviewing for the NYC office.
The LA guy says: "So how was the day?"
NYC guy: "You know it was pretty good.. Had some good people come through. There were some with good grades, but weren't on law review. Then there were some on law review but not good grades. And then there were a few who had good grades and were on law review, but were total freaks."
I never knew I was a freak.
I opened my rejection today and I heard this play http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-GaXa8tSBE&feature=related
I had a great interview with my Simpson Thacher interviewer today... I wonder what they consider "good" grades if it's going to be a litmus test.
And why is it that grades seem to be a huge topic this year? Prior to this semester, I had no idea what grades people had. Now people are tossing them around like it's everyone's business.
10:05- that's good. I've had an old classic running through my head ever since I got home to find two rejections on top of the one I got emailed this morning.
"Nobody likes me. Everybody hates me. Guess I'll go eat worms . . ."
Speaking of old classics, my OCIP rejection theme song was a tad more positive . . .
speaking of theme songs . . .
http://hypem.com/#/track/793163/The+Blow+-+Hey+Boy
MoFo SV-
Pillsbury SF ?
I received a letter saying they are interested in inviting me for a callback interview, but they need additional time to determine their needs for next summer.
MoFo made their callbacks soon! Those interviews were just yesterday.
Yes, Patrick, I'm sure you'll delete this, so I guess I'll just go eat worms.
This might make you laugh:
The Law School Firm Interview
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcaVSTsYyOI&feature=related
"I was first in my class, at law, I was first in my class!"
When is the last day of scheduled interviews?
I have an interview next Tuesday, for Phase 2, and a rescheduled interview on Wednesday that was canceled during Phase 1.
If you turn down callbacks, do they trickle down to the next Boaltie in line? Is there a school-specific "waitlist"?
What do I do when OCIP is but a distant memory and I still don't have any job prospects?
2:22-
Here's a simple 5 step plan:
1. Cry
2. Drown your sorrows in alcohol
3. Cry some more when you look at your loan balance
4. Curse the gods
5. Find a job paying a fraction of what you expected; if you're lucky, you might even land an unpaid externship next summer
* For advice on feeding yourself in this situation, see last night's 11 PM comment regarding potential free food sources.
I'm right there with you, so I'm sharing my foolproof plan for my future. It's going to be amazing.
12:29-
Regularly scheduled interview seem to taper off next Wednesday. However, Stoel Rives LLP (Portland, OR) is coming on the 14th and San Bernadino's PD office is coming on the 10th.
How long does it usually take for a firm to make its decision about extending an offer after a callback?
so it's been almost 2 weeks since my initial interviews. the callbacks i've gotten have all been within 2 days.
is it safe to assume that the dings are just waiting for me in snail mail?
No. Mayer Brown LA interviewed on the first day, and I got a callback from them only yesterday. If you had read the comments above, you would have seen that historically some callbacks have occurred weeks after the interview.
5:03 and 5:05-
This leads to a question I (and I suspect many others) have. So, granted, no word might just mean they're waiting. But what about firms for which people posted callback notices right away, and from which I've heard nothing? Or firms for which people posted dings right away, along with callbacks, and from whom I've heard nothing? Is my address just confusing, or is there hope for me yet? Has anyone gotten that glorious call after assuming they were out, based on earlier postings?
Another way of asking: 5:05- did someone else post a MB callback right away, or were they a blank before you got the call?
I realize a lot of this is fruitless speculation but hey- it's 5 PM on Friday, with a 3 day weekend starting up, meaning we poor, callback-free hacks have 3 days in which to expect no news and agonize over these little details, so speculate away. Or post actual info if you have it, of course.
5:12, here are my two cents. If the ding went up four or five days ago and you've heard nothing, you are probably still in the race. Nothing is set in stone; sometimes students cancel callbacks, and sometimes firms decide not to extend an offer after a callback. That means the firm has no way of knowing for sure whether it has room for all the people it would like to call back. If you are someone whom the firm is thinking of bringing back, but doesn't have room for now, it makes perfect sense to hold off on the ding while they see if they have room for you.
Two examples from my experience last year: I got a callback last year in late November, and I also got a ding in the early spring! Those could also be failures of record keeping by the firms, but all the same, hope remains until the ding actually comes. My advice is to hang in there, and consider sending a thank you note a week or so after your interview, if you feel that would be helpful.
Re time between a callback and getting an offer (or rejection) - I had firms give me an offer during callback interviews, and I got an offer a month after my callback. Firms are really different.
Okay, so more on the "freaking out till Tuesday" speculation.
Does anyone know if firms make decisions for callbacks by practice group? In other words, assume two candidates, one who expressed an interest in transactional work and the other in litigation, would they possibly get notified at different times depending on when the recruiting person for that practice made the decision?
5:25, I think this calls for the old "depends on the firm" answer. I know some firms try very hard for unity across the board on the recruiting front, to the point of extending offers to 2L summers on the same morning, nationwide. But other firms are very fractured by practice group, not to mention less organized, and it is entirely reasonable for them to make callbacks at different times.
Keep in mind, too, that Boalt isn't the only place these firms are recruiting. So, if for example Stanford's OCI was before ours (was it? I don't know) they would call kids from the Red Menace before they called us back. Similarly, they'll be calling us back before they call back students from schools with OCI's later than ours.
Not very helpful, I know. All of this will settle itself out over the next week or two, though. If you an, seize the opportunity to unplug from this thread and enjoy the three day weekend. The weather is beautiful!
2:18 --
When I cancel callback invitations I try to be as gracious and polite as possible. I also say something to the effect of: "and please consider inviting my Berkeley classmates for a callback instead." I would suggest you do the same. Very little (namely luck) separates us all. I don't know how hiring works, but logically when someone cancels a callback invite, they'll invite the next person on the list.
[To everyone] So if you haven't heard up or down from a firm, don't assume that you're out of the running. It just might take a little longer to hear back. Based on what I've seen reported here compared to my own experience, I can confirm that firms are not making their callback decisions all at once... some people cancel, so they call the next person on the list...
Best of luck to everyone.
5:15 I got a call back about 36 hours after seeing a post that someone else got a call back from that firm. I thought I was out but it did come. I'm not sure how many days you can extend this out to but there is hope for at least the day after a post.
re: 5:12 and 10:37 - same thing happened to me. I received a call a day or two after this blog started posting that they were doing cbs. I thought I was a ding, but I'm thinking you can still hold hope until you get an actual ding letter or call from them.
I know this is begging for a "depends on the firm" kind of answer, but how late is too late to schedule a callback for a firm that gives rolling offers? If I wait until October 1 or so, will I just be wasting my time?
You're not wasting your time. It's costly for firms to do call back interviews, and they wouldn't schedule you for an interview if it was moot.
However, I would recommend doing them as soon as possible. For firms giving rolling offers, obviously there are only a finite number of spots.
No callbacks yet. Any one else out there?
5:13 not only do I have no callbacks, but sometimes I get dings from firms before callbacks are listed on this blog. Even before they know who they want to call back they already know they don't want me. I'm in debt and I can't get a job and I'm behind in every single one of my classes. I wish I never came to law school.
I've had a couple firms ding me before calling anyone back, and I just recently received a callback. I don't think you should infer much from that, to be honest. It's not over yet--many firms have not yet made any callbacks.
Can someone shed light on which firms historically provide rolling offers and which do not? Thanks.
5:35, 5:13 here. Thanks for responding. I'm sorry you feel that way. But to be honest, I feel the exact same way, down to every sentence. I don't have good grades and am starting to get dings from the firms that I thought I'd maybe have a chance at--the ones where even the interviews went well. And while I can't be sure, my grades probably won't go up. I know this comment isn't adding anything substantive, but at least we know that I, and now you, are not the only ones who feel this way.
To people with MoFo SF callbacks: Did you interview with Tiffany Ch*ung?
5:35 & 5:13, I don't think you two are alone. At all. I just wrote a long comment, and then deleted it. But . . . hang in there, okay? This is an ugly time of year, but you are going to make it.
From here forward, please use this thread to post comments. Thanks!
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