Grades actually are up...
Now, everyone can "relax". Thank you anonymous poster on Aremn's previous thread for discovering this.
Labels: Grades And Other Neurotic Bullshit, Rankings And Associated Bullshit
posted by Tom Fletcher at 7:40 AM
67 Comments:
Oh no! my grades are lousy, and I'm about to participate in OCI in the fall! What do I do???
same here -- but there's always hope! Although our grades were posted overnight, maybe some of my grades will be changed since they "are being reviewed for accuracy today."
wouldn't the administation want check our grades for accuracy before they post them . . .
Subject: Spring grades
From: "Mary Kelleher-Jones"
Date: Tue, July 11, 2006 9:16 am
To: "#Students-All" <#students-all@law.berkeley.edu>
Grades were posted overnight and are being reviewed for accuracy today.
Any corrections should be completed by tomorrow.
I think they are checking for accuracy because of the potential that main campus screwed up. Boalt probably didn't have the chance to review them before main campus put them up. Considering the delay yesterday, it's probably a good thing they are reviewing what main campus did.
Then again, if they can review all our grades in one day, why can't they input them all in one day also?
p, p, p, h, p
surely there is a mistake here somewhere! my grades are inaccurate!
there needs to be some serious union busting on campus and then they need to start firing people for doing a shitty job on campus.
as for grades and OCIP. A couple of guidelines. The crappier your grades, the more places you have to interview. Order of the coif track people batted close to a thousand. Bottom ten percent batted about .100 (call back / on campus). This is what my small sample of data suggests. Bottom line, if you have straight P's and are willing to interview everywhere, you'll be on track to six figures. If you're transcript looks like a pair of rail road tracks, prepare to have your ego felatiated over the next couple of months.
I can't believe there might be errors with the posted grades. How in the world could they check that in one day?
Right now I have H, H, HH, H. I know one of the H's is correct because the professor already told us our grades. I only want mine to change if it gets better. If they get worse I am going to be so upset.
Try not to worry too much about grades for OCIP (especially since there's nothing you can do about it now), unless you were hoping for some "top" NYC firm. Most CA-based firms are OK with a "mix of grades."
My experience was that interviewers were much more interested in talking about my 1L summer job, and other experience I had on my resume. My grades never came up -- for 1L year I had 3 P's, 2 H's, and 2 HH's. I have friends with mostly P's first year, and they all got jobs. What matters the most is personality and clicking with your interviewer.
I did about 25 on campus interviews, and got 13 call-backs (I might've gotten more but I withdrew from consideration at a few firms). After the first few "practice" OCIP interviews, I got really comfortable with it and actually enjoyed meeting and chatting with the interviewers.
Try to relax and for God's sake never act like you're fatigued with the OCIP process, although it's grueling when you have 4-5 interviews in one day. We're all damned lucky to have the opportunity to bid on the firms rather than the other way around.
Good luck!
I hate to be a jerk about this, but why are people posting their grades? I kinda like not seeing anyone else's grades. I also like others not seeing mine (except when I flaunted my transcript during OCIP, but that was called for). This is turning out to be a notch below grades being posted on a bulletin board with your name on it.
I'm curious what others think...in short my opinion is big fuckin deal, keep your grades and your moaning to yourself and the registrar.
I don't give a crap either way about seeing others grades, but I do want to know if what was posted today is going to change.
I was just about to ask why the hell people are posting grades, and anonymously at that, but Armen beat me to it. Totally ridiculous, no one cares, and it isn't helpful to anyone. The conversation about grades the past couple days wasn't about the grades themselves, but just the process of finding out.
As for OCIP, just don't worry about it for right now. I'm sure that at the appropriate time there will be an OCIP thread that will get everyone's panties in a bunch. Until then, try not to worry about it too much.
One response to 10:01--NY firms hired everyone in sight last year, so no 2Ls should think that if they have a bunch of P's that NYC is out of the question. No reason to think you have any less of a shot on the East Coast as you do on the West.
10:33 again, with one more response to 10:01. 10:01 may have good intentions, but those are pretty damn good grades and 13 callbacks is a hell of a lot, probably much better than average. You don't need a 50% callback rate to do well in OCIP, so don't freak out if you don't get nearly that many callbacks.
9:55... cry me a river.
9:55 - Stop trying to show off.
11:05 - Showing off anonymously, that makes a lot of sense...
What is a "mix of grades" (see 10:01)? People well below the median will have a mix of grades, as will those in the top quartile.
It's too late for rising 2Ls to start worrying about grades. I had 4 H's and 3 P's (a mix) and received 17 call-backs.
Interviewing skills and how well you can relate your resume to the law will serve you far better than grades. By that I mean, for the firms that consider grades important, that's all they care about. For the vast majority that consider grades somewhat in making the decision, you can talk your way to a call-back. Concentrate on interviewing skills now, and forget about your grades.
I got HH HH HH HH, but only one AmJur and two Prossers. I know that three of the HHs are correct (professors called me to praise my intelligence and offer me positions as student-adjunct professor next year), but I am very anxious about the fourth grade. Does anyone know when the Registrar will have finished with their error checking? I would hate to endure the shame of having an odd number of Hs (the letter) on my transcript if that last grade turned out to be an H.
11:44 - as much as we'd like to deny it, grades do matter somewhat and are relevant for deciding which firms to bid on, as well as for those who are wanting to clerk or go into academia.
12:01, 11:44 here. You are correct.
My point was that it seemed that most of the grade anxiety on this thread was associated with OCIP. So, while grades are important for the things you mentioned, rising 2Ls will gain nothing by worrying about what their grades now mean, except for, as you pointed out, which firms to bid on.
In no way did I mean that rising 1Ls or 2Ls should not worry about future grades. They should. Just don't worry about past grades. That's water under the bridge...or sunk costs if you prefer.
Dear Rising 2Ls and others,
There will be plenty of opportunities to discuss OCIP. Don't waste your precious efforts now.
If there is ANYTHING to do now, it's to read up on the different firms. The links to the call backs and offers are on the right, click on them and see which firms were here (not a complete list) and do your own research into each. Try to sense if you want a firm where you will be compartmentalized as a summer or where you get a variety of assignments. Are you a litigator or transactional? Do you know know what each means?
That's the advice I can give you. The grunt work will begin closer to when school starts.
Oh and I would also like to add that at Wash, they get 25% of their interviews based on lottery and 75% are preselected by the firms. At Boalt 100% is lottery. That means firms can't come here and look at resumes and pick and choose whom they speak to. If ever there was a direct way to measure a school's reputation in the legal market, I think this is it. Enjoy the blessing.
Boalt does AmJur awards? Where are they posted? I got highest grade in a class there last semester but i'm not a Boalt student...
boalt doesn't post amjur awards publicly. you just get a nice private congratulatory letter. i'm glad that's the way it's done.
re: Amjur award... do they send a letter or email? How soon do they send them?
I got a letter re amjur 7 months after the end of the semester! Best to ask the registrar about it if you want to find out before you graduate.
For all you stressed-out 1Ls: I know a rising 3L who had 1 H and 6 Ps during his/her first year. She/he did lots of OCIP interviews and landed about 7 call-backs and 5 offers, some with pretty good firms. This person batted about 50% on call-backs with the few NYC firms with which he/she interviewed on campus. The legal economy should be even better this year so just be persistent and you will very likely get paid next summer.
I know of an Am Jur letter for a fall semester class that came in the middle of February. They also put it in the memo section on your transcript, although that also happens sometime (I'm not sure how long) after grades have been posted. I apologize for anonymously showing off for the unnamed person to whom I am referring.
Someone in the registrar's office said they would post comments, such as AmJur/Prosser, in the next week, so this information *should* be visible shortly. Given the source, take this with a grain of salt.
8:30,
That's the best news (for people like me who completely blew it) I've heard in a while. If only I can be so lucky in the fall.
On another note: what's with the taboo of talking about grades at Boalt? I want to know where I should be putting my efforts based on my transcript. I feel like people guard their grades here more than they guard their notes.
5:37 AM - I agree. It's silly that we're told not to talk about our grades, particularly in an anonymous forum. If the grades mean so little to our lives, then we should not be silenced over talking about such a trifling matter. Alternatively, if the grades mean so much, then we should be more open about understanding the different grade patterns that emerge, so as to better gauge where we stand and how firms and other employers will judge us. Rising 2L's will soon understand that the firms know more about your grades and where you stand in the class relative to the hundreds of transcripts they receive than Boalt will ever tell you in your whole life, even if you donate a million dollars to the school.
So, fight the power. Don't let the man hold back free, honest discussion.
Discuss if you like, but grades aren't really of paramount importance. I think we don't talk about them because such talk scratches an itch but doesn't really help you gain insight. Also, it's anti-egalitarian and hurtful to begin associating peers with a rank, so please be modest and discrete in discussions.
The same goes for OCIP offers--I remember one person in class responding to callback offers via email for a bunch of firms that sent me "thank you, but" letters. I'm not a wimp, but I didn't really need to see that. It's simply inconsiderate to make such things public or quasi-public.
Oh Lord, why won't they tell me where I stand against my classmates? I must, MUST I say, I must have meaning behind those funny letters on my transcript. I beat out all those applicants to get here, and that felt great Lord, but now I want to know how many of the matriculated I'm beating. The seasons that passed while I was in the library will be meaningless without a percentile to my name. Please, just give me some kind of sign. I don't want to ask the the on campus recruiter where I stand with respect to the 20 others he interviewed, but if need be I will. Lord, why have you forsaken me so?
Anyway, I will still mock and ridicule those who are eager to find out what their grades mean. If you want to talk about grades, great do it. But not anonymously. Please, go ahead and attach your name to those grades. Now let's see how comfortable it feels. Yeah I thought so. I echo the above commenter, it's discourteous.
5:37, do you really feel people guard their notes? i've never had problems getting notes from anyone at boalt, even people who are just acquaintences from class rather than friends.
it's true that grades are a big part of OCIP (at least at the initial screening stage). i'm not going to lie. but unless they clearly fall below some unspoken metric the interviewer/firm has set, your personality and ability to communicate articulately are most important.
once you get a call-back, grades are pretty much thrown out of the decision making process unless necessary for an arbitrary tie-breaker where the firm likes you and another person equally.
Armen, I dont' think the point of discussing grades is to make anyone feel bad.
Attaching a name to the grades entirely defeats the purpose of these discussions -- to find out where we stand relative to others, for our own PERSONAL benefit (i.e. figuring out which firms to bid on, or whether we're competitive for certain fellowships/clerkships).
People are free not to engage in such discussions or read these comments.
Easy for you to critique, Armen, from your high chair at Gibson Dunn. Some people with mostly Ps are genuinely worried they won't find jobs, and I'm sure it is reassuring to hear that people in the same situation did succeed last year. The person w/ those fancy grades worrying about AmJurs, though, is a major tool.
As a clerkship applicant, rank matters as much as grades. ANyone heard when rankings will be available?
Why? What ranking do you need to have a reasonable chance at a federal court clerkship? Top 10? Top third?
all else being equal, the higher the rank the better. there's no formula - i've heard of top 5% not getting interviews, and people with decent but not stellar grades getting great clerkships. that said, i know there are certain benefits to being at the top of the rank scale - for instance, it's my understanding that W. Fletcher almost invariably interviews the top 3 students. i also had a friend who graduated a couple of years ago who said Choper requested his resume to consider forwarding it to a friendly judge; my friend did not know Choper in any way, and the request could only have been based on rank.
What's decent but not stellar? Top 20? Top 30? Top half? Boalt's clerkship rates have been in the teens, but a bunch of people at the top opt out of the process, right?
11:01, it's really easy for you to point to my firm anonymously. I really shouldn't have to take my lunch break to point out why that's (1) discourteous (2) vicious and (3) juvenile. The guy who posted about his AmJur is leagues ahead of you...at least he didn't divulge anyone else's personal information. Are you really worried where you might end up with your grades? Grow the eff up. You sound like a whiney poli sci major wondering where his lsat score and gpa could get him. I heard that crap at the admissions office in St. Louis and chuckled...little did I know some Boalties are probably even less mature.
To all others, I'm assuming this is a single **** ****er, so I'm not taking him that seriously. But I really (I mean really) don't need your numb *** anonymous comments about where I am and what I can and cannot comment about. I've been tempted to remove anonymous comments before, it won't take much to push me over the edge.
As a further observation, so far all the gunner talk is coming from the Rising 2Ls. Way to prove to me you guys aren't a bunch of tools. (See here, here, and here). There's a fine line between requesting/getting information and turning into a competitive jerk. For the former, this break down of the selectivity of the LA market seems accurate. It was posted last year by a Boalt '06. But like I said, hold your horses, there will be plenty of time down the road to discuss firm bidding and the entire OCIP process.
Armen - your comments (and the comments from the links in your last post) dampen my enthusiasm for Boalt. Please stop being so negative and spiteful.
ty
- a 1L
As a previous poster put it, as long as your grades are above the interviewer's "cut-off" (and not all firms have strict cut-offs), they'll consider you based mostly on your personality/interview. I know plenty of people with mostly, or even all, P's who got great firm jobs. Who you are and how you present yourself in person count for a lot. Conversely, I knew people who had great grades but interviewed poorly who had a much more difficult time. Don't sweat grades for OCIP so much. Just relax and be a human being, know something about the firm.
yeah, judges and academics are the real grade-grubbers, not firms.
Of these people who get jobs with half or mostly P's - are any of them non-diversity hires? Not being racist - just want to know for my own non-diverse butt's sake.
Yes.
As someone who has endured the process of failing miserably at OCIP, I think I might have some decent advice (or alternatively, I could be entirely unqualified to be making any statements). If you have bad grades, don't dwell on it, move on. You're at Boalt for a reason. You've obviously done well enough to sell yourself thus far, don't stop selling yourself, that's what it's all about. The legal market is wide open for you rising 2Ls, so just go for it guns blazing. Strategy is probably more important than anything, so keep that in mind more than a month from now when you should start thinking about thinking about all this crap. Enjoy your summer and quit bumming me out.
sorry, but every class thinks that the class following it is filled with a bunch of gunners and tools. the current bar slaves think that about the rising 3 Ls. and the ones who are now working in law firms thought that about the current bar slaves.
nothing changes from class to class. law students are GENERALLY competitive (to some degree, that's how we got here), neurotic, and prone to stress.
The person mentioned above who had 6 Ps and 1 H is about as white as anyone at Boalt. So quit the crap about "diversity hires" and all that other bullshit.
what "crap" about diversity hires? You don't think there's AA in law school and law hiring? That's funny, I don't recall seeing any "Non-Diversity" fellowships or firm scholarships out there.
Here is a novel idea: why doesn't someone who knows how to use blogspot (or cares enough, in my case) start a new blog for all those who want to compare and discuss grades? It would probably take no more than 15 minutes and we would all be spared the constant battle on this blog over whether people who care about grades are good or evil.
7:33 - I knew I would get that kind of comment by asking the question. I sincerely wanted to know for my own sake, being a whitey and all. Like I said - not being racist, just wanted to know. So sensitive!
I agree with 2:19 (ty). Can we get a blog that isn't moderated by a megalomaniac?
Aw, come on...Armen has his moments, but only when he is talking about underclassmen (like me - boo hoo). But hey, feel free to go start your own blog with your real name and see if you can take the heat that Armen takes - I have a feeling you'll end up either seriously irritated or in tears. It takes about 2 minutes to get a blog up and running on blogger.com.
i know im going to sound like a tool for asking but what does it take to be top 5% of the class after your 2L year? what about the first few numbered places. that gpa award they give at graduation is the one chance you have to give out your class rank to firms. do you need straight hh hh hh to get it, or if you are top 5% after 2L year is it possible?
5:37 here in response to 9:41
No, I don't know anyone who guards their notes. That's the thing though. I'd figure I could tell quite a bit more about a person from their daily work rather than 7 marks given based on 3 hour exams, which in the long run only constitute about 1/18th (if not less) of a person's stellar academic career.
But ya, I did crap first year. That's probably why I am working in Uganda. Oops did I just out myself? Eh, I don't really care.
Sincerely,
5:37
Depends on the competition in your particular class. I think they said Bayern had only three Hs.
They say 3.4-3.6 at graduation is generally top 10% (for Order of the Coif). Rumor has it top 5% was around 3.9-4.0 (roughly even split between H/HH) for the last class.
So did anyone actually have their grades change since they were first posted?
Anyone else having serious trouble with calmail? As in, won't let you log in?
You need to use your full email address in the login screen:
for example,
boaltie@boalthall.berkeley.edu
It's part of that upgrade they did.
It's not working for me either, even with the full address
I got 2 grades changed. It happened the same day as the email. Within a couple hours.
When are the class ranks coming out? In the words of Lisa Simpson, "pick me, grade me, validate me!"
Something is definitely wrong with Calmail. I decided to say sayonara to the whole Bearmail/Calmail system and am forwarding to gmail. This took care of my spam problem too. To set up permanent forwarding go to the main bearmail page and use the "quick link" to "manage your account."
top 5% is more like 40% H, 60% HH by credits. A handful of people dance around on that line in each class and so there's a good bit of leapfrogging back and forth. i just graduated and had 2 semesters of 10%, 1 semester of 5%, and am waiting to see what happened at the end.
for clerkships, top 10% is a good guide to land a federal clerkship but not for sure. if you do other impressive things, impressive not only meaning journals/moot court, but interesting and engaged things in the world, 15-20% can still get you a 9th circuit clerkship. some people in top 10% just get a couple calls from districts but still get something. others in top 10% get bunches of calls. it really kind of depends and nobody knows on what. definitely the lore of boalt is filled with people who get clerkships and good ones from top 1/3 to 1/2 of the class-- so it's a crapshoot.
60% HH and 40% H would be a 4.2, which I would hope would make you one of the top 5 people overall. I guarantee you that top 5% was less than 3.9, which is slightly more Hs than HHs.
everyone needs to calm the heck down. grades, shmades. have a beer (or a vodka tonic if you're "too cool" for that sort of thing... )
anybody heard anything about class ranks?
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